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az60
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January 30, 2023 21:54
I imagine that's a workable compromise.
As shown above, for many collectors the FDC is a trinity: the cancellation, the associated stamps and the envelope. In this compromise I see no room for collectors, who see different envelopes as different items. unless they place them as separate images in their own collection.
I find that a great contrast to categories such as stamps, comics, books, records and CDs, etc., which are much better suited to house and manage collections. I would also like to see that for the FDCs (together with other cancellations :-) And with links to the stamp section, that relationship is displayed very well.
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January 30, 2023 22:23
az60 I don't know what's so hard to understand because I've already repeated it 3 times. 80,000 items will go to Postmarking and you (?) will then make the link with the stamp section?
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az60
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January 31, 2023 00:41
I don't know what's so hard to understand
I do :-). The fact that in the Netherlands there may be as many as 750 (500?, 1000?) different first day postmarks of some FDCs. All different municipalities, where the FDC can be stamped. I just put that in again. And since you haven't responded to it now and called it bullshit, I assume you get it now. At least I hope so, because I can't explain it any simpler. By the way, I am curious how many different cancellations of an FDC can exist in Russia or the US.
And as for the 80,000. I really do see the problem. The only difference between us is that you pull the emergency brake due to a problem and shout that everything should stay the same (or is cause and effect the other way around and do you by definition think that everything should stay the same?). I think with a problem you should take a good look at whether there is not a solution for it. There are good people in the house. Think of, for example, Postmaster, Collector, Rene, Marco. They have a lot of knowledge. Maybe they see solutions that you don't see. Or do you think differently? And otherwise we have a lot of good people on the forum. They also have good ideas, make good proposals. And perhaps, as Charles1971 said: 'Perhaps you should propose something (positive) yourself more often. I think that will help the discussion.
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January 31, 2023 09:09
az60 I don't know how crazy you can think of it in the Netherlands, but in Belgium we have at most 5 official FDC stamps. Then possibly take some different pre-printed covers and you will end up with a maximum of 20 items.
All the rest, all the blank envelopes, all the stamps that you will find all over the country, are "home industry" and should be treated differently.
Wasn't it ever suggested somewhere to use a Publisher field for the official covers.
I've already heard several crazy proposals, from a completely new FDC definition to moving 80000 items. Don't turn a mosquito into an elephant. But apparently you don't agree at all because everyone wants it their way.
And then I have to hear that I know nothing about collecting and that I have to present something positive? Nice stuff here on the forum.
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  • January 31, 2023 10:16
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January 31, 2023 10:16
No new arguments are presented.
Given all the responses I have received, this is a very sensitive subject, on which everyone has their own opinion and therefore many have been and will be very disappointed with any decision.
That would be a great pity and that is why we want to take a good look at all options before we decide to adjust anything or nothing.
This topic will be locked until we have made a decision.
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February 12, 2023 18:00
Recently there has been intensive consultation with the stamp managers and that has paid off :-) Of course there will be people who will not be completely satisfied, but the majority will be happy with the content and especially with the clarity.
Section 10.4 FDC will soon be replaced by this text:
***********
10.4 First Day Cover (FDC)
An FDC is an envelope, franked with stamps recognizably canceled on the same day on their day of issue.

Since we only include limited edition items in the stamp catalog, FDC items must meet the following conditions:

  1. Specially serialized FDC envelopes, which bear "FDC stamps" and are properly canceled on the day the stamps are issued, lead to different FDC items.
    Cancellations (on these FDC envelopes) of different special FDC stamps lead to different FDC items.

  2. A non-specially made FDC envelope with canceled "FDC stamps" will only be included in the stamp catalog once per stamp.
    Cancellations (on these regular envelopes) of different special FDC stamps lead to different FDC items.

  3. Cancellation by any non-special FDC stamp, may only be included once as 1 item. Everyone can then link their own image to this generic item in their collection.

  4. Cases from 1, 2 and 3 that do not lead to a new FDC item:
    a. A different colour, shape and/or size of this envelope.
    b. Different order or position of the stamps.
    c. Identical stamps that have been pasted several times on the envelope, for example issue in block of four.
    d. Attached stamps outside the intended FDC.
    e. Envelopes with / without addressing or different addresses or attached postal labels.
    f. Variations in place name on a postmark when it comes to any non-special FDC postmark.
    g. Another color of the cancellation.
    h. Another position of the outrigger.
    i. Variations in number of cancellations of the same cancellation

  5. An FDC item contains, if possible, the complete series of "FDC stamps".
    a. If the FDC is only issued per stamp, then we include it as separate FDC items per stamp.
    b. We do not include combinations of individual "FDC stamps" (on one envelope) as FDC items, only possibly the complete series.
    c. "FDC stamps" means: Loose stamp, stamp with tab, se-tenant, block, sheetlet or stamp booklet.
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az60
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February 13, 2023 01:03
Collectioneur
It is good that a decision has been made. Kudos to the process that has been set in motion. As you will understand, the outcome is not my outcome. I prefer consistency to compromise. But so be it. I won't mess with it now :-). On the contrary, I will lend a hand. Because I think a few things could be sharper.
1 - I think the first sentence is wrong. I assume that different specially crafted envelopes lead to different items.
5b - What if the series does not fit on the envelope and it is spread over several envelopes?
5c - Minisheets is not defined. Also not a species.
5c - So no stamp booklets on an FDC? e.g. #2775847 . Fine in itself :-)
Again, nothing more than dots on the i. And fine if these points had already been taken into consideration.
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February 13, 2023 01:39
"mini sheets" ???
NL = sheet
E = miniature sheet, minisheet or sheetlet
F = serial
D = Kleinbogen

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February 13, 2023 08:45
az60
Kudos are mainly to the administrators who helped with it.

1) You are right linguistically, but the intention is clear to everyone and prevents "different" from appearing too often in ad 1.
5b) We do not include multiple items in one LD item. The type Series is an exception in the Stamps section.
5c) Also Loriot mentions "mini sheet". Meant is a small sheet, I first make a sheet of it.
5c) Stamp booklet has slipped our mind, but I will add it.
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  • February 14, 2023 08:25
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February 14, 2023 08:25
The Handbook Stamps version 3.8 is live.
Adjusted are 10.4 FDC and 27 Catalog value.
The translations will follow.

Administrators are requested to review and/or change the FDC items that were already modified with "Duplicate" and/or "Wrong rubric" as soon as possible.
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az60
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February 14, 2023 10:47
For me the link still leads to the Handbook version 3.7.
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February 14, 2023 11:00
az60
Not anymore:-)
Thanks for reporting.
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February 23, 2023 20:30
is #9477357 now a duplicate of #9477361 or is the presence of a (coloured) additional stamp sufficient to admit a new item in the stamp section?
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February 23, 2023 20:40
I think this is a duplication, because there is no special cancellation of the stamps, in accordance with 10.4 ad 2.
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February 23, 2023 21:29
Or not, I really don't know.

Point 2: ' Cancellations (on these regular envelopes) of different special FDC stamps lead to different FDC items '. A 'First day of issue' stamp looks like an FDC stamp to me...
One regular envelope has regular postmarks, the other regular envelope too, plus a special one.

So is #9526527 also a duplicate of #9525141 , or is it not?
Point 1: ' Cancellations (on these FDC envelopes) of different special FDC stamps lead to different FDC items '
'this' here is ' serialized FDC envelopes '.
But is the special stamp 'SOEHARTO unwanted' a stamp specially made for the FDC (or was it added later) ...

Reviewing the FDC items will not be an easy job. I have now indicated a few for NL, but I am already starting to have serious doubts.
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February 23, 2023 22:04
Raoul62
If you want the opinion of someone who knows nothing about it (otherwise I'll give it anyway... :-) )
Handbook can be read as ... special FDC (postal) stamps ... The "first day of issue" and "soeharto unwanted" is additional publicity, coincidentally as a stamp.
As for your first case: If someone can prove that no official FDC stamp exists and that everything in circulation was stamped in this post office with this stamp on the day of presale, then this is the first day stamp. If not, this is made from a random post office.
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February 23, 2023 22:33
user-1713548
In case a description/definition/agreement is included in the handbook, the opinion of 'someone who knows nothing about it' is still the best opinion.
Apart from the passion for collecting FDCs.

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az60
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February 23, 2023 23:46
1 - I think the official/special FDC stamp is always the stamp with which the stamps are canceled. Other cancellations are fringe, comparable to an extra stamp, a drawing of a daughter, a poetry picture or whatever decoration. So in my eyes a double.
2 - In this case, I feel that I have doubts about the validity of the stamps and the envelope. I wonder if these are real stamps and real FDCs. It seems more like an action by the action group / political party Orange Free State. Has this all been used for mailing? If not, it's just a private expense. If it is official, then it is the same substantiation as in the first case, namely just fringe and I would label it as duplication.
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February 24, 2023 06:26
is #9477357 now a duplicate of #9477361 or is the presence of a (colored) additional stamp sufficient to admit a new item in the stamp section?

They are different postmarks, from different post offices. Unclear to see, but different?.
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February 24, 2023 07:46
10.4 ad 1 - Is it a specially produced envelope? = No
10.4 ad 2 - Is this a cancellation of the "FDC stamps" by a special FDC stamp = No
10.4 ad 3 - Cancellation by any non-special FDC stamp, may only be included once as 1 item. Everyone can then link their own image to this generic item in their collection.
10.4 ad 4-fgh - Variations in place name, color, etc. on a stamp when it concerns any non-special FDC stamp, will not lead to a new FDC item.

It is about the cancellation of the "FDC stamps" and not about stamps on a random envelope. It is an item that should be rejected because there is already such an FDC in the catalog.
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March 05, 2023 22:08
2 - In this case, I feel that I have doubts about the validity of the stamps and the envelope. I wonder if these are real stamps and real FDCs.
The Free State stamps and Fdc are described in the city stamp catalog 2009 and 2012-2013 excluding Soeharto cancel. I don't know the background of that extra stamp either. The orange free state stamps come from both Amsterdam and The Hague.
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az60
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March 06, 2023 00:00
portbetaald
Thank you for checking.

The following information can be found on the Internet: Gnome stamps from 1970 . So published by the action group and delivered by volunteers (?) of the same action group. A nice time document.
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March 06, 2023 14:59
Almost all of them are here: https://www.stampi.nl/NL/C/Local/1970/page.php and https://www.stampi.nl/NL/C/Local/1971/page.php

Funnily enough, Stampi does specifically have the FDC with the Soeharto stamp for some reason.
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