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January 29, 2023 08:27
There seems to be some friction among collectors about the current description of an FDC.
In this topic we can hopefully analyze where exactly the shoe pinches.
The current description at 10.4 actually consists of 3 paragraphs:
A = Definition of an FDC
B = Additional rules
C = Further explanation

In the discussion we can then more easily refer to A, B1, B2, B3, B4, B5, C, and we do not have to copy the entire text each time.
The current text is:
10.4 F.D.C. (First Day Cover)
An FDC is a special illustrated, limited edition envelope, with the stamp(s) first issued on that day and postmarked with the date of the first day of issue.
Additional rules:
  1. Different color stamps do not lead to separate items.
  2. A different order or location of the stamps will not result in separate items. The number of stamps or the location of the stamp is also not a separate item. The number of identical stamps affixed to the envelope is not a separate item (eg issue in blocks of four). Adding other stamps is not a separate item.
  3. Envelopes with / without addressing or different addresses or attached postal labels do not lead to separate items.
  4. Special FDC stamps that are different lead to separate items.
  5. A stamp other than the special FDC stamp, but with the relevant date of cancellation, is included once. Postmarks with other place names, etc. are not included separately.

Preferably the complete series on 1 envelope. If the FDC is only issued per stamp on separate envelopes, then these are separate items. If the FDC has been issued with both series and loose stamps and they are otherwise identical, then only those with complete series.
If a series is stuck on 2 envelopes (because of too many stamps, it doesn't fit) and those envelopes are otherwise identical, we include it as 1 item (2 envelopes in 1 image).
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January 29, 2023 08:55
A. An FDC is an envelope with stamp(s) and postmark(s). The date of the postmark(s) is the date of issue of these stamp(s).
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January 29, 2023 09:54
B.4 4. Different postmarks lead to separate items.
B.5 5. Will be cancelled.
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January 29, 2023 09:57
C. Will be cancelled.
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January 29, 2023 10:13
INTERNATIONAL DEFINITIONS
Ersttag letter
Ein Ersttagsbrief (auch "FDC") ist ein Brief , der am Ersttag einer neuen Briefmarke mit dieser && vershen und gestempelt && ist (english: first day cover , französisch: enveloppe premier jour ).
Ersttagsbriefumschlag
Dies ist ein amtlich oder privat herausgegebener Briefumschlag , auf dem durch Bild oder Inschrift auf den Ausgabeanlaß einer Markenedition hingewiesen wird. Philatelic muß ein derartiger Brief mit den Briefmarken , für die der Umschlag erschienen ist, freigemacht und other erscheinungstag abgetempelt sein.

Ersttagssonderstempel Herebei acts es sich um einen offiziellen Postmark , der am ersten Gültigkeitstag einer neuen Briefmarke von bestimmten Postämtern anstatt eines normalen Ortsstempel auf dem Kuvert abgeschlagen wird.

Ersttagsstamp
Bezeichnung für einen Stempel , der am Tag der Herausgabe einer Marke pampered wird. Wichtig ist hier das Tagesdatum, wobei es sich um einen üblichen Stempel oder einen Sonderstempel trade kann. Er ist das Gegenstück zum Letzttagstempel , der aber bei weitem nicht so populär ist.
_______________________________________________________________
Filahome (NL)
First Day Envelope
First day of issue of the stamps A first day envelope is a postal item with a stamp or value impression (e.g. postcard) with a stamp with a date showing that the item was postmarked on the first day of issue of the stamps or postal item .
_______________________________________________________________


https://www.linns.com/news/postal-updates-page/glossary-terms-disabled.html
First-day cover: A cover bearing a stamp tied by a cancellation showing the date of the official first day of issue of that stamp.
_______________________________________________________________


Philatelic Dictionary (indonesianewsonline.com)
First Day Cover -
[1] An entire bearing one or more postage stamps and postally used on the day of issue of those stamps.
[2] Envelopes with a new postage stamp and a cancellation showing the date and place where the stamp was first issued. Some covers will have a cachet (design) on the envelope describing an event.
_______________________________________________________________


https://www.warwickandwarwick.com/news/guides/philatelic-terms
First Day Cover (FDC): An envelope or card which has been postmarked and used on the first day of issue.


____________________________________________________________


FIRST DAY COVER: Envelope with stamp canceled on the first day of issue. Most covers from 1935 on are cached. Cachets are designs which relate to the topic of the stamp being issued.


https://brixtonchrome.com/pages/philatelic-glossary-terms-beginning-with-d-to-f
(Canada) +History
First Day Cover
A first day cover refers to a cover that was sent on a stamp's first day of issue. Most first day covers until the 1970's were produced by private individuals who would take an envelope and print, draw or paint a design onto the envelope, called a cachet, address the cover to their customers and then take them to the post office where the issue of the day would be affixed and canceled with the first day of issue postmark. Of course any cover at all, even those without cachets that happened to be used on a stamp's first day of issue would qualify as a first day cover, and as a matter of fact it is these covers that today are the most valuable and highly sought after. However, some of the hand-painted cachets can also be worth many hundreds of dollars each, even on what is normally a very inexpensive issue.


By the 1960's larger companies started producing first day covers, with standardized, pre-printed cachets, The Art Craft first day cover above is one such example. Then in the 1970's the postal authorities themselves began mass producing their own first day covers. These are of extremely high quality and their existence essentially killed the market for individual cachet-makers who simply could not compete with the economies of scale that were enjoyed by the post office.


Enveloppe illustrée émise en prive ou par l'autorité postale, associant un timbre-poste à paraitre à une enveloppe au moyen d'un tampon premier jour indiquant la date d'émission du timbre-poste.
Le tampon n'est pas obligatoirement un cachet commémoratif et l'envelope premier jour n'a pas forcément transité par la poste.
http://www.phil-ouest.com/Liste_lexique.php?lexique=1&lettre=A (FRANCE)
|
| Envelope «premier jour». : Enveloppe émise en Privé ou par l'autorité postale, associant le timbre-poste à l'envelope au moyen d'un tampon indiquant la date d'émission du timbre-poste. Le tampon n'est pas obligatoirement un tampon commémoratif et l'envelope n'a pas forcément transité par la poste. Source: Association pour le Développement de la Philatélie
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  • January 29, 2023 10:45
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January 29, 2023 10:45
Loriot
Thank you for this overview of FDC definitions by various international organizations. They are not all in agreement, but the majority tend towards a broader understanding of paragraph A.

Charles1971
For B and C I expect there will be other opinions on this as well, but wait and see.
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az60
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  • January 29, 2023 11:14
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January 29, 2023 11:14
A, an FDC is a cover (=envelope) with stamps on it that have been canceled with the first day of issue of those stamps as the date or/and the mention of the first day of issue (of course in the language of the country of the stamps ).
DA1-Cover/envelope in the definition to distinguish first day ticket and first day newspaper.
DA2 Stamping on the first day of issue makes the difference with an occasional envelope.
DA3-The cancellation is the essence and that is why the FDCs belong in the Other section, postcancellation. The FDCs in the Other section can easily be linked to the stamp section (see #2215381 ) and vice versa.
DA4-Eerstedagblad, First-day card, occasional envelope and card are moving with it.

Additional rules:
B1. Different color stamps lead to separate items.
DB1a-The stamping is the essence for an FDC. A red stamp is a different item for me than the same FDC with a black stamp. Just like a red overprint on stamps is different from a black overprint.
DB1b-Colour is an input field in the 'section' postmarking.
DB1c-Keep the number of colors limited: black, possibly. white, the primary colors red/yellow/blue (or magenta, yellow, cyan?) and possibly. the secondary colors (orange, green, violet)
B2. No changes, fine.
B3. No changes, fine.
B4. Special FDC stamps that are different lead to separate items. Exceptions are postmarks with other place names, etc., which are not included separately.
DB4a-If you don't then, especially with the old FDC's, there are maybe 750 different versions of 1 FDC. You shouldn't want that as LastDodo. The few who collect all placemarks have a fantastic and admirable collection, but not one that fits Lastdodo.
B5. A stamp other than the special FDC stamp, but with the relevant date of cancellation, is included once.
DB5a-This point is very unclear and needs to be rewritten.

C6. The FDC with the complete series on 1 envelope and the FDC's with only a single stamp of that series on the envelope are all separate items.
DC6a-Combinations of eg 2 or 3 stamps of that series are therefore not allowed. Only that series or a single stamp. This fits in better with how it is collected. It is also much easier for the importers and administrators. You don't have to look up whether FDCs exist with the full series.
C7. If a series is stuck on 2 (or more) envelopes (because of too many stamps, it won't fit) and those envelopes and cancellation are otherwise identical, we include them as separate items.
DC7a-It is not allowed in LastDodo: A catalog item can never be a collection of objects. The only exception is in the stamps category and concerns the type of series.
C8. Envelopes with different 'printed' illustrations lead to separate items, provided that these envelopes are printed in quantities.

Hopefully FDC collectors will be able to sell their collection better this way and the FDCs will become a full-fledged section. But again, I'm not an FDC collector, so shoot your way.
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  • January 29, 2023 11:24
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January 29, 2023 11:24
A FDC is a cover with at least one stamp on it,cancelled of it´s day of issue.

That would be a simple and clear definition.
I have problems to include cards or other forms of paper,because the C in
FDC stands for cover.Otherwise there would be a problem with most
Maximum Cards (MC),Erst-Tags-Blättern (ETB) and the likes.

It becomes more difficult with f.i. early (1915-1939) "First-Day-Cards" 
from Japan.But wether to include them in the listings should be to the
discretion of the catalogue managers etc.
I personally would add them,because they are more available to
 collectors,than the covers of that periode.But nevertheless they
 are not common or cheap.

There should be however rules in regard to the listing of different
covers of one same stamp.
In my opinion the existing ones are not bad,namely allowing different
cachets (illustrations on FDCs) to be listed separately.
However not allowing different arrangements of additional stamps,
or how stamps are placed on the cover or different types of
cancellations,to be listed separately.

By the way: that commercial FDC makers like the definition,that a FDC
has to be an illustrated one,prefereably made by them alone,is
self-evident.

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January 29, 2023 12:28
See previous messages (> 12 months old), 5 times (the text in bold)
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January 29, 2023 13:07
Raoul62 
I see one problem with that definition:
very often stamps are issued,what do not pay the letter-fee.
Example:
The letter fee is € 1.-,but the face value of the newly issued stamp is
80 Cents.Preferably a collector would add other stamp(s) of 20 C.,
to achieve the correct letter-rate.The additional stamp normally
would have another day of issue and therefore would not fulfill the
criteria of that definition.
The alternative would be to affix two  newly issued stamps (of 80 C.),
but that would lead to an over-franked letter,what is not desirable.
 
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January 29, 2023 13:16
Nowhere in Raoul's definition is it stated that you may not affix other stamps Salentin. See also point 2. Attaching other stamps is not a separate item.
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January 29, 2023 13:58
B 1. Canceled.
B.4 4. Different postmarks lead to separate items. Different colors of the same postmark do not result in separate items.
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January 29, 2023 14:11
az60
Apparently you missed my message from last night (but the thread is closed so I can't respond anymore). It is not the intention to reinvent hot water by writing a new definition, but to adjust a few details to clarify it.
A. ... an envelope made in edition ... (apparently Stamps is the only category where own creations are allowed, in other sections on LD this is called home industry). I don't see what that language has to do with it either?
B4-DB4a. Special FDC stamps from other places are separate items. I don't know of any postal administration that issues 750 special stamps. (You repeat your text from yesterday again, although I replied that this was against the manual!)
B5-DB5a. I've heard several times now that it's unclear, but what is it?
C6-DC6a. It was previously decided to only record the entire series. Why come back to this now? I repeat: it must be made in edition.
And just this: The Other section is for collecting areas where we don't have much yet. Add 46k FDC, 1k Eerstedagkaart, 4k Eerstedagblad, 8k Opportunity envelope and 1k Opportunity card on top of that, which administrator of Other (without stamp knowledge, because that is not his domain) will deal with that?
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January 29, 2023 14:20
Charles1971
We're talking about the content, not the layout. What is the point of deleting B1 and adding the same text to B4?
With all due respect to everyone's contributions, we wrote a definition last year. It seems to me that the intention is to refine this definition and not to completely rewrite this definition.
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az60
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January 29, 2023 14:40
It is not the intention to reinvent hot water by writing a new definition, but to adjust a few details to clarify it.
You shouldn't have this discussion with me but with Collectioneur, who (rightly) suggested this.
Or maybe reading the first post first is an even better idea?
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January 29, 2023 14:49
Well user-1713548 if you could read a bit you would have seen that the text has indeed changed. Not much, but still something.
In my opinion better formatting can also do a lot in clarifying the definition, apparently not in your opinion.
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January 29, 2023 14:58
Let's think about the content first, then the layout.
Collectioneur With the broad definition (a cover, so drop the "in circulation") you come very close to home industry. Up to the top managers to decide on this first.
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January 29, 2023 15:09
With a blank cover you can (almost) never check whether it was in circulation or not. If the broad definition does not come about, the item from the previous discussion will be brought up again next year. Like the other blank covers.
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January 29, 2023 15:11
A(n) FDC is a cover (envelope) with stamps on it,stamped on the day
of issuance of
those stamps there on appearance.
Sorry,Charles,but that implies,that all stamps on the envelope will have
to be issued that very day.
Maybe an inaccurate translation,as the English sounds somewhat 
unusual.
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January 29, 2023 15:20
Indeed, I believe Salentin that we are dealing with a translation problem here. Maybe someone can provide a good english translation?.
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January 29, 2023 15:55
Salentin Charles1971
Do we really want to nitpick the definition? Probably 99% of the FDC meets "a special cover with a special stamp". Those few blank covers then fall under "use your common sense".
What is important is the decision of LD itself. Do we want all covers, read home industry? Do >80,000 items have to go to Other to be forgotten?
Currently I notice a few collectors with stubbornly their own opinion and suspicious silence on the official side.
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January 29, 2023 16:06
user-1713548 ,
some time ago you wrote,that you´d understand zero of philately.
You do not have to proove that.At least I believe you anyway.
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January 29, 2023 16:06
We just wait and see user-1713548 , maybe something very beautiful will emerge. A regulation FDC, especially for the collector, for example. Other than that I don't see anything stubborn here, only good suggestions. There may be more to come. I also expected some from you user-1713548, but yes, there must be a reason why you are nothing.
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January 29, 2023 17:20
The right translation of the first sentence  "FDC" in English should be:  

"A FDC is a special illustrated, in circulation made envelope containing the stamp(s) first issued on that
day, canceled with the date of the first day of issue.
"
user-1713548 
Read the history above please. Which FDC's until 1970 are "huisvlijt" and which FDC aren't?  


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January 29, 2023 18:10
Salentin Please stay on topic rather than making personal comments.
Charles1971 Please read my previous posts again. As far as I can see, I have already had to respond 3 times to give my opinion and to counter your proposals. And if it's not a definitive counter-proposal, then at least questioning your claims.
Loriot You use "special illustrated" yourself again, so all blanks go in the trash?
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