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January 29, 2023 18:12
What about:
A FDC is an envelope with affixed stamp(s),cancelled on the day of issue
of at least one of the stamps. 
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January 29, 2023 18:20
Some people may want to respond, but not publicly on the forum. You can also send me a PM. I will take that into account in the evaluation of this discussion.
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January 29, 2023 18:52
user-1713548 
You don't quite understand.
The translation I posted is the translation of the current Dutch text of 10.4 Fdc first sentence, not quite correctly translated in the current English text.
And you didn't  give an answer to my question.
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January 29, 2023 20:18
Loriot Indeed, I didn't get it because you also didn't say that this is the current text 10.4. I had read "should be", so... well it doesn't matter. The main thing is that we know what we are talking about.
Current text: "..., in circulation made envelope, ..." you think will become " ..., in circulation made envelope ... ". I may not know anything about it, but do you speak English or is this translation from some site because I don't think many people will understand this. "multiple copies", but I like to leave the translation to the specialists?
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January 29, 2023 21:07
EN Edition made:
E made in circulation
D Im Umlauf brought
F Mis en circulation

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az60
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January 29, 2023 21:30
Loriot
Made in edition means more like: Printed in numbers.
Your translations are more: Circulated.
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January 29, 2023 21:37
Loriot
Absolutely not ! Made in edition = made in multiple copies.
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January 30, 2023 09:15
Just some observations, NO conclusions.
No reference is made to the basics of stamp collecting.
In principle, a stamp has 2 forms of existence:
  • Unused
  • Used = Stamped

A special form of Stamped is that a stamp is canceled on the first day of issue. Intriguingly, nowhere (including outside the forum) is a "First Day Seal" mentioned. This discussion is therefore not about the stamp itself, which is apparently not collected as an item.

However, the envelope and card that are provided with seal(s) on the first day of their issue and are Postmarked on that first day of issue are collected.
We call this First Day envelope/card, for simplicity we call it FDC here.

Anyone can include anything in their collection, but the current discussion is about when we include an FDC in the catalog. To this end, agreements are required that are laid down in the handbook.
The biggest point of discussion is the envelope itself, can these be all types or only the envelopes specially made for this purpose? The basis is a postal item, which is stamped on the day of the first day of issue of the stamps on the postal item.

From that basis you can distinguish between the specially made mail items and other normal (standard) envelopes. The concept of "home industry" plays a role here.
Before specially made FDC mail items appeared, there were already FDCs of normal mail items, which are also collected.
First day stamps can therefore be on normal mail items and specially created mail items.

Postcancellation in itself is a separate collection area, and therefore also a distinguishing feature of an FDC. A first requirement is of course that it is demonstrably the same date as the first day of issue.
Worldwide, a distinction is also made in the name shown in the cancellation, so in names of countries, states, cities, post offices and specially created FDC cancellations. Colors are also important for collectors.
The number of cancels on an FDC does not matter, just like the position of a cancel. Also addressing does not create another FDC item.
But here it is not clear whether this concerns the collection area Stamps or the collection area Postmarks.
Looking purely at the basics, an FDC is about being a postal item, with a demonstrable postmark date of the first day of issue of the stamps used.

So far my first observations (no conclusions:-))
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January 30, 2023 10:18
In principle, a stamp has 2 forms of existence:

You are already at 33% stamp knowledge :)

First day stamp

That too is a form of existence: the 'CTO' (cancelled to Order)

Combined:
there are 6 existences:
1. Mint
The condition as the item was sold at the counter (digital or physical). If gummed: with the intact original gum without any trace of erosion.
2. Unused
Still valid postage (not stamped, not used), but no longer in original condition. Usually due to a 'sticker' on the reverse. If gummed, that gum is partially or completely affected. Or there are traces of rust formation, traces of 'greasy fingers', ...
In other words: a damaged item (on the back)
3. Used
The item has been used in the process that is the basis of philately: shipping. A stamp is noticeable (partially or completely) and if gummed it has disappeared (soaked loose)
4. CTO
Those are the so-called 'first day stamps'. Most collectors are allergic to it and do not want it in their collection. It's commercialized. The stamps are canceled MNH for the sole purpose of selling them to collectors, as 'cancelled'. The item has in no way been part of the process that is the basis of philately: shipping.
5. Damaged
Corner off, tear, short teeth, CTO without (or partly due to adhesive) gum, image with traces of erosion (partly gone), colored (deviated from a red envelope), discolored (due to prolonged fleet exposure to bright sunlight, due to overheating), with (clearly noticeable) rust formation, re-gummed (original gum was gone or affected, and later 'gum' was put back on).
6. False
Counterfeit. It sometimes happens with older expensive (post) stamps that they are counterfeited.
With stamps that are canceled or with an overprint that are significantly more valuable than the original copy, there are also scammers who counterfeit that cancellation or overprint. Turning cheap stamps into expensive collector's items... a scam.


There are collectors only for existences 1 and 3.
Existences 2, 4, 5 and 6 are sometimes collected, in very expensive specimens, to temporarily fill 'holes'. Because of the price which is very low.
There are also collectors of existence 6, as far as the 'old stuff' is concerned. But that is a very special domain. There are specialized studies and books that map out the various (known) forgeries. And there are collectors who want to get their hands on all of them. Other than that, I don't know anything about counterfeits.

You also have the 'types' of stamps (eg 'Postage stamps', 'Closing stamps', Fiscal stamps, ...).
'Illegal issues' are also a kind of stamps. The trading (buying and selling) of these illegal items is, on the other hand, prohibited by law (punishable). Just as with the sale of fake ADIDAS (or fake Armani) both the buyer and the seller risk heavy fines and/or imprisonment.

This is not about FDC's, but is a correction/addition to the contents of the previous post in this thread.
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January 30, 2023 10:21
Here someone has a very well developed power of observation. And in reading comprehension this one was also best in class I believe.
So, that's the feathers for today.

But here it is not clear whether this concerns the collection area Stamps or the collection area Postmarks.

Collecting Area Stamps. As the name says, the most important thing in this section are the stamps.
Collecting area Postmarks. As the name says, the most important thing in this section are the postmarks.

The problem now is that an FDC is a combination of these two collecting areas. An FDC is not an FDC if the stamp is missing or the seal is missing. In principle, it does not matter where they are, as long as they are all together. Dividing it over two categories by means of rules seems to me to be a very bad option.

Perhaps even better, Other-FDC.
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January 30, 2023 10:38
Charles1971 Collectioneur "regular" stamps are not linked to a particular stamp (at most to a time period). "First day stamps" are linked to a particular stamp (or stamps). This makes it difficult for me to make it a separate area.

Raoul62 I hadn't realized that CTOs are actually first day stamps. A quick spot check on blocks and sheets proves you right, but the date is often not visible on loose stamps.
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January 30, 2023 10:50
From that basis you can distinguish between the specially made mail items and other normal (standard) envelopes. The concept of "home industry" plays a role here.
Before specially made FDC mail items appeared, there were already FDCs of normal mail items, which are also collected.
First day stamps can therefore be on normal mail items and specially created mail items.

I think this is the crux of the discussion and we already discussed this at length last year when determining the current definition. It touches on the basic design of the entire catalog (now LastDodo, formerly Catawiki) which has always been based on serially produced / editioned items.

I just don't see how envelopes put together by people themselves (choose the envelope yourself, address written on it, stamp stuck in a specific place) fit in there. Then you get a proliferation of all unique home craft items, don't you?

How did you come up with that Raoul62 ? Or do you want to include 1 copy of a self-made envelope of each stamp in the catalog and limit it to that?
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January 30, 2023 10:57
Rene Collectioneur the combination of stamp and cancel is not a home industry.
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January 30, 2023 11:00
Helv , Do you mean that we only have to include an image of the first day stamp plus the stamp and not the whole (homemade) postal item with address etc ?
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January 30, 2023 11:09
Actually, I think Rene you can't speak of home industry or not made in edition. An FDC is an envelope with a newly released stamp and a date stamp. It doesn't matter what the envelope looks like. If there are two different envelopes (e.g. red and green) but each envelope has the same stamp with the same stamp, i.e. from an office or postal centre. Is therefore an item, is therefore an FDC.

Suppose a new stamp is released today. This new stamp is bought by 20 different people. This is then pasted on 20 different envelopes and taken to the same postal centre. There these envelopes are stamped with the same stamp and the same date. In my eyes an item, in edition, an FDC.

Home industry problem solved?.
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January 30, 2023 11:13
There these envelopes are stamped with the same stamp and the same date.

So a solution could be to include the stamp plus first-day cancel in the catalog once?
And therefore not including complete self-made envelopes in the catalog as happened before. Would everyone then possibly still be able to place an image of their own complete postal item in their own collection with the unique FDC item (stamp and stamp)?

Do you mean it like this?
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January 30, 2023 11:21
No Rene , each post office has its own stamp.
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January 30, 2023 11:22
Then (October/2021-January 2022) FDCs were discussed for months, everyone was able to voice their opinion, not all arguments were retained.
A decision has been made and it is included in the handbook. In the meantime, for more than 1 years (since January 2021).
Learn to live with it and bear the consequences. Wrong section is wrong section.

Keep rattling and then come back to it with "it was just for a laugh, we don't know anything about that" ... you won't get ahead with that. In this way, all discussions about everything that is laid down in the handbook continue to be repeated every year (sometimes several times).
Anyone interested in a discussion about Velletje vs Blok? Or about Nominal value?
Something can be discussed once in a while, but not several times a year, year after year, over and over again. Especially since a collector of those things was not listened to anyway. Could be a lesson for the future. Then it does something else. Any drawback...

A wise man in LD once preached in the desert (...don't put decisions in a handbook if you don't follow them anyway...).
In addition, there is no manual with a manual that tells you which agreements you should and should not follow. All agreements contained in the handbook must be followed.

  1. What does it say? -> "illustrated envelope"
  2. What does that mean? If there is no drawing on the envelope, it is not FDC.
  3. As a collector, do I agree with this? No, but that's my problem.
  4. Does that agreed appointment have to be followed? I would still be allowed to assume that it is, and then in the first place by the administrators .

Those who wanted to see it formulated like this may have been very happy for a year now that they can manage their FDC collection on LD (sic) this way.

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January 30, 2023 11:27
No Rene , each post office has its own stamp.

I can imagine that in the Stamp section we include the stamp plus a first day postmark in the catalog so that people can add an image of their own postal item with a specific postmark to their collection.

Different postmarks can of course be placed in the Postmarking section (now part of Other).
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January 30, 2023 11:30
The problem now is that an FDC is a combination of these two collecting areas. An FDC is not an FDC if the stamp is missing or the seal is missing. In principle, it does not matter where they are, as long as they are all together. Dividing it over two categories by means of rules seems to me to be a very bad option.
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January 30, 2023 11:41
Charles1971
If we would consider the combination of the stamp with a first-day cancel as FDC (so regardless of what the envelope looks like exactly), then I can imagine that we include that combination as an image in the stamp section. People can then include an image of their specific, unique postal item in their collection with that item.

All variants of stamps can then be placed in the postmarking section.

I imagine that's a workable compromise.


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January 30, 2023 12:22
Maybe wait for the reaction of the FDC collectors Rene . Hopefully these will come.
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January 30, 2023 14:19
Read through Rene a few times and if I've read it right now, it's a very workable compromise. Actually, it's not a compromise, if I've read it right now, at least, but everything is now as it should be.
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January 30, 2023 21:04
Collectioneur
Nice summary, congratulations.
2 aspects that I would like to highlight: Home industry and place names on stamps.
Home industry: Charles1971 already indicated it. The stamps are official stamps. Issued in circulation at the post offices by authorized officials (?). Manually, yes, but in edition. It wasn't home industry until philatelists robbed postmen and post offices en masse of their stamp machines in the sixties in order to be able to put the stamps at home themselves. And again, that stamp is the essence.
Place names: As Raoul has pointed out, in the pre-commerce era, you rode your bike to the post office to mail your envelope of stamps to yourself. The envelope was stamped by that post office. The stamp stated the date (a first day of issue) and the municipality where the envelope was stamped. Jan did that in Amsterdam, Marie in Rotterdam, Henk in Utrecht, Kees in The Hague, Carla in Groningen. That's already 5 different first day cancellations. Because there were then many more municipalities in the Netherlands than today, I estimated the number of different first day cancellations at 750. It could also be 500 or 1000. Imagine 1000 different first day cancellations of the same FDC in your catalog.
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January 30, 2023 21:10
The problem now is that an FDC is a combination of these two collecting areas
Or maybe 3. An FDC is a composite object, consisting of an envelope, stamp(s) and a special postmark.
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