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October 03, 2021 16:22
I'm going crazy ;) I put a cappella with spoken word (interview, speech, storyteller/fairy tale) for lack of better.
A cappella is sung text without instrumental accompaniment.
Instrumental is music without singing , there are many songs instrumental regardless of music style/type (should still be included with all those songs actually...).

Acoustic, there are many songs (known as electronically amplified version ) have also been released 'unplugged'.
Why write down comments/details when you can choose a style for every song/song from the already existing dropdown box ???

Remixer is a bit more difficult yes ,
An artist who performs something by another artist makes a cover (is often on the/an album or single of the performer.
By remixer I mean specifically (what you see a lot in the single field, pop or dance('my area') ),
Artist A releases a song and 1 or more 'renovated' pieces of that song are rsies  made by artist B, and possibly. artist C etc. and put on the same (CD/vinyl) single. It "can" be seen as a cover...
After the title is indeed the remixer in brackets, so that you know that the song has been edited by someone else, can perfectly suffice.
A remixer (almost always DJs) can be useful/clear if it appears in its own release list if you want to find/have everything from that remixer. (no separate remixer list but just in the list of his own productions)
Request is because some enter the remixer as guest artist when entering, there is something in it, but guest artists often work together on a song (with each other or digitally remotely)???
Remixers do that in their own bubble, and the artist or record company may or may not approve it as an extra track on the release...

Field is "alone "  the part (catalog data) with title, artist, label country etc...?
The part (tracks for this album) with guest artist, title, time etc. is not a field?

Equally MVG . patrick. :)

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Morits
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October 03, 2021 16:43
You should never look up matrix numbers on the internet, there are so many variants, always and always only read from the carrier
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October 03, 2021 23:23
Lyonesse 
Where the problem is (whatever Morits indicates) it is not verifiable
The starting point with (Catawiki) lastdodo was/is that only original scans/photos
And items must therefore be in someone's possession being placed
So don't pick pictures and don't use them from other sites (that you sometimes consult another site)
Of course, making and using an extra field is not the biggest problem, but how do you know that that info is correct?
That's the problem
Country can be read from the carrier that is leading (provided the scan is readable)
The cover often comes from another country so cannot be used for that info 
Release number same story

As far as I know the starting point of (Catawiki) LD is only existing items 
And such that info can be checked
Especially if you make it a selection field

And that there are still a number of wishes from me on the table has been known for a long time


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October 04, 2021 08:57
archivaris
To be clear: 'a cappella' at Spoken word, will be removed without mercy.
I don't understand the need for a separate field either very well. An 'a cappella' performance does not change the genre/species. As far as I'm concerned, there's no shortage of better ones ;-)

As far as Instrumental are concerned, you are somewhat right: it is a somewhat unclear section. It is not the intention to place all instrumental music in that section. You should really only use it when everything else doesn't fit, e.g. with easy listening orchestral music from the 50s and 60s (which were previously incorrectly placed under Jazz or World Music).

In the catalog we don't use style, but genre or kind. Again, a acoustic performance does not change the genre/species. Many unplugged versions are known, but it remains a fashion of the last 20 years. In an absolute sense it's a small number.

What I understand from your story is that you want to be able to see the productions of a particular remixer together. This is met if you list the remixer as a guest artist. You should not take the term 'guest artist' too literally. Just use the possibilities offered by such a heading/input field.

By (input) field is meant all headings in which you can enter something.

Dick52 
Ben totally agree with you!


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October 04, 2021 11:09
Dick52 Lyonesse I agree with Dick and Morits that the matrix number must be verifiable, otherwise you can never check for duplicates in the Catalog because maybe the matrix number is different and you can't check that. Then you have to ask for a clearer image and you often don't get one. I also have that with Postcards where the back is actually a must to be able to check the publisher or the card number.
archivaris Dick52 Please do not split band members! I think we've already had that discussion once and then you get a lot of double mentions, because there are also people who only collect the band.
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October 04, 2021 15:25
I totally agree with Vertigo and Dick52.
DisneyMeentwijck 
I don't quite understand what you mean by "There are also people who only collect the tape."
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October 04, 2021 16:57
I understand the response; that it cannot be controlled. Indeed, the matrix number is not easy to photograph so that it can be checked. I also keep my collection on Discogs. Almost all matrix numbers are listed here. I always check it with my own copy by matrix number. I'll keep your option to enter this in details.
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October 04, 2021 17:37
ronvanderlinden
I also understand the reaction that it cannot always be checked, because one cannot always see it.
But with Music and think also with many other things at LD, there is a double standard .
I have eg with music on thousands of records the B side is filled in, or also for records with various artists, of which not much is known either, because there are no photos of it, and what about all those Composers and Lyricists, where do they all come from, they are also not always visible on the plate.
And here the Change is also Accepted, so what is wrong with making a field for the Matrix Numbers.
I think one should not always think that it can be wrong go, or if a number is ever mistyped, one should see the improvement for LD of this, and leave it to the collectors whether to fill in the Matrix Numbers or not.
Greetings John.
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October 04, 2021 17:46
It really doesn't matter whether you enter a matrix number in a separate field or with specifics, things can always go wrong. So just a separate field for matrix number, don't be so stuffy...
Moreover, matrix number is an essential part of the recognition of the LP, with specifics you can fill in the largest possible 'nonsense' (just to charge)
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October 04, 2021 20:48
Morits 
If you think it doesn't matter whether you enter a matrix number in a separate field or enter Specials, then this seems like a lack of empathy.
Of course you can also enter nonsense under Details, but the chance that you enter a nonsensical matrix number is considerably smaller than with a fixed input field. This is because the participants in Details are more motivated to fill in the matrix number (correctly).

I also think it would be better that, instead of having endless, energy-consuming discussions, we ask ourselves which way we can improve the existing catalog. How we can get the many errors out.
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October 04, 2021 21:38
Lyonesse 
As Dick52 wrote, the premise of the catalog is that we can verify the data entered against the images, so that we can be sure that the data entered relates to the item presented.
At matrix numbers can't and that's where it stops.

The mention of composers and lyricists is always somewhat dubious, because often people are mentioned who have not actually composed or co-written, but who do have the copyright. Composers and lyricists are not important for the identification of the item in 99.99999% of the cases. So you can't compare that data with a data like matrix number.

But if you believe that the management should be consistent and therefore the composers and lyricists that are not on the record should not be approved I will of course comply with that. The other administrators too, I think.

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October 04, 2021 22:11
vertigo
Dear Rob.
I get the feeling so slowly that you guys don't want any progress at all at LD, those rules you talk about are years old, and I believe that's ok for you, please don't progress, while the world is spinning faster and faster, and there are so many opportunities to improve things, but no it's fine the way it is.
Fine keep it up.
Greetings John.

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October 04, 2021 22:25
vertigo 
Agree with you 
First try to reduce the mistakes (I also sometimes sin)
Simple mistakes yesterday
(letter too much/too little suddenly new artist)
In addition, how important is the matrix number? In some cases it can have added value
I think an original inner sleeve, attachment etc. is more important

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October 05, 2021 08:16
A few questions about matrix numbers:
  • Are they only on vinyl records?
  • Does each side have the same number or are both sides different?
  • In an album with multiple records, are the records numbered differently?
  • Does the matrix number have a fixed format?
  • The ISBN for books has a fixed part per publisher, is that also the case here per record company?

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October 05, 2021 08:29
  • Yes
  •  Different
  • Yes
  • No
  • No
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October 05, 2021 09:00
Morits 
Thank you. So the number that is pressed on the back of a CD is something different than a matrix number?
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October 05, 2021 10:31
I have a large vinyl collection myself and it also seems important to me to include what can be found in the run-out groove area - matrix numbers and other codes / messages ("PORKY") - with the item. Simply because it allows you to identify them well. Even though it's not easy - and we shouldn't oblige - there are pictures of the numbers and codes to take:



The only thing I find difficult is that of certain variants of albums (combinations of label and cover variants) can often hear many different matrix numbers / codes. On Discogs you see that the different combinations of cover and label (and possibly vinyl color, etc.) are included as a separate item, but that there is an overview of the different matrix numbers in a free text field:

I actually think we should do that in a similar way because the overview - I think - is lost if for every slightly different matrix number, with all other things being the same, another item is included. What do others think about how to include this?

It should indeed not become a mandatory field. Because sometimes there is no matrix number and because the information can always be added later.
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October 05, 2021 10:41
Collectioneur
I can't tell you exactly what that number on the CD means, but it is not a matrix number
Rene 
Another matrix number means a different pressing/release/printing of the LP. And here too, just like with comics, more money is spent for a first pressing. You sometimes have LPs of which only 100 copies of the first pressing (so matrix) are released and are therefore worth a lot...
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October 05, 2021 15:02
Morits,
 
A different matrix number means a different pressing/release/printing of the LP.

Well, actually not. Many first pressings have multiple matrix-no variants. See e.g. The Dark Side Of The Moon first pressing:
https://www.discogs.com/release/1873013- Pink-Floyd-The-Dark-Side-Of-The-Moon


And regularly there are many more, many dozens of different, matrix variants of a pressing .
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October 05, 2021 15:51
Rene 
well, actually, you do know how a matrix number ends up in the LP. There's a Beatles LP, for example, whose first pressing, if you can get your hands on it, can easily fetch tens of thousands of dollars. Each subsequent pressing is just peanuts compared to that.
What you are showing on Discogs is because nobody bothers to make a distinction there, but there is, perhaps not always in large price differences
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October 05, 2021 16:01
Morits , I think it mainly comes down to whether you would like to include all those matrix variants as separate items in the catalog.
Actually you should also record all thousands of this album separately (after all, the entry 1st thousand is slightly older than 2nd thousand).
https://www.lastdodo.nl/nl/items/4109629 -tintin-au-pays-des-soviets

But what if there were not ten thousand variants of this album, but 100, as with many label sleeve variants of records. Would you record them all separately? In theory it is all possible, but at a certain point it will no longer be practically feasible and in any case no longer clear, that's what I mean.
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October 05, 2021 16:26
Rene
Dear Rene.
Now you have taken The Dark Side Of The Moon as an example.
But that is a very big one, at Discogs alone there are already 1077 pieces listed, which you get at LD never ever together, a collector must first have it and enter it.
The Matrix Numbers are not only about the LPs but also about Singles and 78 RPM records.
As an example a 78 RPM record #2393303
That's how I've solved this and others so far.
Here you can see the A and B Side of the record also clearly the Matrix Song,
and this Song remains unique for the Song of this Artist too
Greetings John.
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October 05, 2021 16:26
Just a little theory about deadwax and matrices ;-)

"Laquer Mastering
This is the art of using your source material (tape, DAT, CD, etc.) The lacquer is a softer waxy version of the plate used to make the metal parts that eventually become the stampers that make your plates. The lacquer is coated with galvanized silver to make hard nickel plates that become the masters the masters are like the metal versions of the reverse plate instead of grooves they have ridges the masters are used to make "mothers" which are metal versions of your plate which can be used to make stampers.These stampers are a kind of molds that make your plates, just like the masters they have ridges instead of grooves and these ridges press the grooves into your plate."

Source: https://www.tunecore.com/nl/guides/basics-of-vinyl

So:
Step 1: Cutting. Making the lacquer.
Step 2: First metal mirrored "print" made by electro-chemical processes. The master.
Step 3: A new print is made from the master. The mother (mother).
Step 4: A new impression is made of the mother. The stamper.
Step 5: The plates are pressed.

A separate lacquer - master - mother - stamper is made for each side of the plate.

The info in the deadwax is added to the pestle, the last disk in the process. With a set of stampers you can only press a limited number of plates. With a small edition, a set of stampers is sufficient. With larger quantities (think of popular artists) the first pressing is much larger. Can run into the hundreds of thousands (Beatles). Then several stampers are made that are used on several presses at the same time. That's where the differences in the matrix numbers come from. So you can't just say what a first pressing is.

Sometimes the info is pressed into the deadwax, sometimes manually. Often there is also information such as who the technician was or in which factory the plate was pressed. Every record company has its own thing. Phonogram (Philips) has added a country code, so you can pretty easily see in which country the record was pressed.

Now the key question: does it make sense to include the info in LD? As far as I'm concerned, yes, but there are snags:

It's difficult to photograph. And therefore not or difficult to control. Will it be a new field or can it be added to details? The info is not unambiguous, so the new field must then become a free field. It can and is already happening at details. Do you have to be able to search for it? No idea. I always work from "the other side". I search for artists and titles, And from there I come to extra info such as these matrix numbers.

So, a very "Raoul story". Fire away ;-)
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October 05, 2021 16:28
Rene 
sorry, but how about all the different reprints of comics? Exactly the same argument applies there... 
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October 05, 2021 16:34
Now you have taken The Dark Side Of The Moon as an example.
But that is a very large one, at Discogs alone there are 1077 pieces listed, you will never ever get them together at LD, a collectors must first have it and enter it.
The Matrix Numbers not only concern the LPs but also Singles and 78 RPM records.
As an example a 78 RPM record #2393303
That's how I feel with this and others so far solved.
Here you can also clearly see the Matrix Number on the A and B side of the record,
and this Number remains unique for this Artist's Song

That's right Lyonesse . There are of course also plenty of examples where different matrix numbers are not used. Like this one indeed.
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