Stamps/N.a.v. discussion stamp and coin auction36 messages

I have the fierce discussion about the stamp- and coin auction, which took place exactly during my 2.5 week vacation, carefully read. In addition to the substantive issue of what can be offered at the auction and how it should be, two things in particular stand out. Statements are made about the basic idea of Catawiki, ie "the concept", "the idea", which I do not recognize myself in and that is strange because I once had this basic idea myself. And in addition, unfortunately mainly by a few administrators, the most basic standards of decency have been far exceeded a number of times.

To start with the first: the basic idea for Catawiki was not just to set up a good, up-to-date catalog where you can keep track of your collection - something that I myself missed very much for my comic collection - but also to ensure a solid income stream. Those two things are inextricably linked. You cannot continue to develop something professionally and ensure its continuity without having a solid source of income. There are plenty of well-intentioned initiatives, in all kinds of areas, that never really get off the ground due to the lack of a serious income stream and die a soft death. That's why we put a lot of energy into making it possible to trade on Catawiki from the start. You could do that on the site from day 1. Our idea was, and is, that it is the most fair and promising to link our own income stream to the things that are sold through Catawiki. If someone makes money from our site through a sale, we thought it reasonable and feasible to get some commission on that.

The alternative is that we are going to charge collectors money for using the catalog or maintaining their collection. However, we deliberately did not opt for this from the very first planning, because that will really slow down the use of Catawiki and the expansion of the catalog. In the first rough sketches for Catawiki, in addition to the trading of objects in shops, an auction has already been drawn up. It is simply not true that Catawiki is only intended as a catalog and that "the trade" is now suddenly involved as well. And that, as someone said, a commercial side is emerging that needs to be disconnected from Catawiki, is really nonsense. Catawiki is both a catalog where you can keep track of your collection and a place where collectibles are traded. This has been the case from the beginning and will continue to be so.

Many people enjoy adding to the catalog. Many other people enjoy running their own Catawiki shop or buying and selling at our auctions. Of course, it is fine to find a certain part of Catawiki more interesting than another part, but don't begrudge others to enjoy it. People who on the forum over and over again, like a greyed-out gramophone record, are generally negative about "the sellers" or "the auction buyers" should really stop doing that. If it is difficult to show respect in a normal way, then at least remember that their commission contributions are of great importance to Catawiki, and therefore also to the catalog.

Then the tone that some thought they should catch on in the discussion about the auction. To my chagrin and with a lot of vicarious shame, I read posts in which people were insulted, threatened and burned. There were threats (fake bids) and there was even hacked into very nice programmers, who do not hurt a fly and regularly fix a problem with the site in the evenings and weekends, and who only asked to stop the discussion over the weekend. parking. If something had to be tackled in this case, then at most Marco and me would have liked it because we let our holiday overlap for a few days and therefore we could not respond quickly. We will make sure that we don't do it that way anymore in terms of vacation planning.

That especially some administrators let themselves go this way, I think very much. Administrators and the other volunteers who work on Catawiki are on a pedestal with me. They are a great help to take Catawiki forward and some administrators have done a superhuman amount of work on the catalog. Administrators can make a lot for me, but in the end there are limits. Boekenbytes has already well articulated in his post how I experienced the discussion on this point and I will therefore post his ( somewhat shortened) quote here:

When I read the reactions of a number of administrators, I get the impression that they are under the impression that they are the boss. Harsh words, unacceptable demands towards the company behind Catawiki ("you have to do it this way, otherwise ..."), even trying to force a member of staff to resign.

Of course it is greatly appreciated what your administrators, together with the users, all mean to Catawiki in general and the catalog in particular. Of course, administrators have more influence than regular users in determining the course of Catawiki. Of course there can be frustration if you think things are not dealt with properly or quickly enough. Of course there can be irritation because something is not going well or your advice is not followed. Even then, that should not be a reason to derail this way.

In my opinion, a number of administrators are rapidly losing their influence. The oversimplified bluntness of some administrators, which is particularly apparent in this topic, makes me doubt their suitability as an administrator and does not seem to me exactly a calling card to hand out for Catawiki.

Administrators are indeed the calling card of the Catawiki catalog and that includes common decency standards in the contact with others, be they users or people who work at Catawiki. An administrator must respect this, however great his track record is.

Then the substantive side of the matter: who decides whether something may be offered at the auction and how in special situations (many items). in a lot, etc.) must be done exactly. I want to be very clear about this: our auctioneers determine this based on the situation in their area of interest. So if it is common at stamp auctions to also auction interesting collections, something everyone I speak to in the stamp world agrees, then the auctioneer can decide to allow them. And if, in the opinion of the auctioneer, it is not feasible in a certain situation or adds almost nothing to link items to the catalog, then he can still decide to include it in the auction. This applies to all auctions. I can well imagine that if 'Donald Duck weekly magazine' is offered as a complete lot at the comic auction, something that is bound to happen, that the auctioneer decides to include it even if the seller has not linked all 3,300 Donald Ducks (although if only because it will cause technical problems if it does).

Obviously, an auctioneer is always accountable to his audience and to Marco and me for the lots in his auction. Auctioneers feel that too and do their utmost in practice. But like everyone else, they also sometimes make a mistake and there may be something with the content of a certain lot such as an incorrect or unclear presentation. They process many hundreds of offered lots per week so that is inevitable. Experience shows that when something like this is discussed calmly, they take a serious look at it.

Importantly, just as the auctioneers are responsible for the auctions, only the catalog managers are responsible for the catalog. It cannot therefore be the case that catalog managers have to let go of their rules and usual working method because of an auction. I can understand this fear pegag here and there:

I think I am speaking on behalf of most administrators when I say the following regarding the link to the catalog:

1) that in essence, it doesn't matter to most administrators which position is taken, as long as that position does not result in administrators being pressured for entries that do not comply with the rules that apply to the catalog, anyway in the catalog because it is a daily offer or auction lot.

2) that most administrators consider it a missed opportunity when people who get commercial profit from Catawiki via auction or daily offer are not fully encouraged to contribute to the catalog.

It is absolutely not the intention that auctioneers, or other parties involved, put pressure on administrators to deviate from the applicable rules for the catalog. If it does, then I can be escalated to me right away and I will definitely do something about it. I am also convinced that precisely if you do not set rigid rules for the auction but let the auctioneers work on the basis of "common sense", then you prevent pressure on catalog managers. The frenetic clinging to rules leads to nonsensical situations such as linking empty scrapbooks to the lot with the many Sigmund strips in the comic auction or Arco's comment that collections of stamps and coins may always be offered as far as he is concerned, provided that the empty albums are true. they are in but are paired. It was rightly pointed out in this regard that with such a rule you should always allow everything, as long as the supplier puts the packaging of a batch in the catalog. In practice, nobody wants that kind of catalog additions.

Much more important, as pegag also points out, is that auctioneers do encourage auction providers to make a good contribution to the catalog. This week we discussed this extensively with the auctioneers and they are fully aware of this importance. Many providers at the auction also see very well that the best possible presentation of their lots is important and that linking to the catalog helps them in this regard. And that it is also even more interesting because collectors who have these items on their wish list are then made aware of their items in the auction.

Many auction providers are also just passionate collectors who sometimes sell something and often actively use our catalog and consider it important. After analysis by Marco, it appears that auction providers add on average much more to the catalog than the average active collector on Catawiki (active in the sense of collectors with a collection on Catawiki that is maintained). The 5,000 added items mentioned earlier by Marco only concerned the new catalog items in auction lots in a certain period. Apart from their own auction items, it appears that auction providers also add many other things to the catalog. It is bizarre that some forum posters (I am not talking about administrators now) that screamed furiously about the auction providers, add less to the catalog themselves than the average auction provider.

As an aside: the reason for all the commotion lay in a number of lots at the stamp and coin auction. Although some of these lots could have been described better in a general sense (image, description, numbers, etc.), which was also discussed internally, the basic blame against Jos as the new responsible auctioneer was that he suddenly allowed lots with large numbers of items. without coupling. However, this has been common practice since collections have been offered at the beginning of June. It has also emerged that there is a great need for such lots among bidders at the auction. There is pressure from collectors and these lots achieve relatively high yields. In addition to the needs of bidders, there is of course also a commercial interest for us to include collections because many providers at this auction find it important, and are so used to being able to offer them. And the fact that they would like to offer them is due to the demand from collectors what they respond to. There is a clear interaction there. Sellers come after all mainly with things that collectors also demand, otherwise it makes no sense for them. That it is usually impossible to link such collections to the catalog, Sinbad in his first post in the thread in question also nicely (why shortly afterwards he will demand the opposite in the high-pitched discussion is a mystery to me):

A discussion conducted by non-postage stampers ... how the hell can you buy a lot of e.g. 4 stock books filled with perhaps 20,000 stamps, link by stamp in Catawiki or 500 FDCs each ... if you are going to make that a requirement for large stamp lots, you can close the auction

I've been in the bisniss for decades but have never seen a stamp auction where entire stock books lots were displayed in single stamps in an auction guide

My post is gradually becoming a bit lengthy because I want to go into carefully what is going on. To avoid that the answer asked of me is unclear as a result, I would like to quote part of the post from Scam (there are more posts from others with the same purport):

I actually agree with Martinel and many other managers that the managers have no responsibility for the Auction, nor for the Shops, which are separate matters for me. Actually that is a matter between the Owners and the Auctioneers.

And of course auctioneers must be able to make decisions. So if the rules say: 'The Auctioneers decide autonomously on whether or not to accept lots', then everything is resolved.

So this is indeed the rule: catalog managers are about the catalog, auctioneers are about the auction. Catalog administrators treat items that come through the auction just like other items that are entered into the catalog. They approach the relevant importers neither more positively nor more negatively. And auctioneers are not putting pressure on administrators to deviate from the catalog rules for the purpose of the auction. Of course, everyone can calmly signal if there is room for improvement in the catalog or at an auction lot.

Finally, this has to be said: Marco and I also founded Catawiki to have a nice site that we can enjoy. We work with a lot of passion and seeing the site grow gives us a lot of satisfaction. The way some have now taken up the recent forum discussion about the stamp auction threatens to take that pleasure away from us. However, we take care of letting our fun spoil and go along with it. For the time being, I am confident that together we will come out "strengthened", now that there is more clarity about the division of roles and rules. We have already shown together that we can achieve a lot together. In any case, I would urge everyone to at least respond calmly and with respect to each other now.

Just a quick note:

This whole hassle could have been avoided if those lots where all the fuss about had been taken out of the auction. Then first adjust the rules and then include the lots again in the next auction. Those lots were put up for auction without following the then applicable rules. And that an email is sent to providers is not a valid rule, because no one else knows it. That is where the problem lies ...

@Morits, Jos as the auctioneer responded quite quickly with a post that started as follows:

I agree with the statement that auction lots should actually have a link to Catawiki items. We always urge the providers of the stamp and coin auctions to do so and fortunately most of them also cooperate well. A few people sometimes forget something, but who don't.

In my opinion, however, it is completely unrealistic to link every item with large (er) batches, collections and the like. Then such an auction lot becomes virtually illegible and I completely agree with Sinbad on this point. We must of course keep busy in a sensible way.

That seems like a normal reaction from him. As mentioned, this has also been common practice since the beginning of June in the stamp and coin auction for collections. That could have been communicated more clearly, but that is no reason to burn someone down completely.

that's not quite the answer I expected. If administrators work according to the rules and see that others are violating those rules, a response is given. But if the person being responded to then ignores those rules, because other rules that are invisible to users are used, then you will get this. And again the auctioneer should have recognized that there were rules in place that were not known to others and should have responded, not by e-mail but by withdrawing those lots and admitting that there were other rules that should have been formalized first. A clear case of miscommunication and there was at least one person who knew about it and that was the auctioneer and not the administrators.

@Morits, It was not the intention to use invisible rules (if at all, because such lots were and are just up for auction). And yes, it could have been better communicated, as there is so much better. But the point here is that it should never be a reason to attack and threaten someone who is doing his job with the best of intentions in this way.

You are right about that, it could have been a bit less, but as you have noticed, the auctioneer's reaction was so bad that it escalated and eventually even Arwin left. And that hasn't been a Monday morning frenzy. That should also be considered. Realizing what such a reaction can bring about, no matter how well someone does their best, administrators do that too. And between the lines I can see that the auctioneer is more often kept above their heads and the managers are made aware of their violent reaction.

I think you should get both parties around the table, because there is friction between the auctioneer on the one hand and the managers on the other.

Rene

It was not the intention to use invisible rules (if at all, because such lots were and are just up for auction).

but there are 'rules' that no administrator knows. You can't deny that, can you? An email that has been sent to a provider is not a rule, because it is not recorded anywhere in the auction rules. And the fact that lots are put up for auction in this way still does not confirm that it went according to a rule. (I will not clarify this in an analogy, otherwise I will receive another strange email from a pissed off user)

I can really understand that a stamp lot with a stock book full of stamps cannot all be linked to a CW item, please let that be clear. But then include that in the rules.

@ Morits, I think Jos just reacted calmly.

because there is friction between the auctioneer on the one hand and the managers on the other.

That couldn't be otherwise with different interests and (at least in daily practice) overlapping competences.

Indeed, administrators have been urged by people involved in setting up and organizing the auctions to approve and leave bad and half-entered items in the catalog, because they were afraid that auction providers would drop out if they had to put more time and work into it.

René says that that is absolutely not the intention and he is of course right, but it did happen and administrators got the strong impression that that if not with approval, then at least with the knowledge of the management. And if administrators get the impression that the quality of the catalog is being compromised for the sake of turnover, they will take a turn for the worse. Because that catalog is of course formally owned by Marco and René, but many administrators secretly think that the catalog is theirs and feel to a large extent responsible for the quality. after all, they have also invested a lot of time to achieve that level of quality. It is understandable that they felt attacked on their own territory, the catalog, or moved the battle scene to the auction, the territory of the "opponent".

Of Jos rustig heeft gereageerd, laten we dat in het midden laten.

Maar zoals Morits ook heeft aangegeven als hij de kavels gewoon geparkeerd had,

was er veel minder scherp gereageerd. En had het gewoon rustig opgelost kunnen worden.

Ook niet nodig is om veiling of shops los te koppelen, en dat er verdiend moet worden is ook geen punt.

Maar de koppeling tussen de catalogus en verkoop dien je wel in stand te houden.

Ik kan me voorstellen bij de Donald Duck dat een jaargang aanbeidt maar dan kan je dit ook heel duidelijk aangeven. en dat je daar dan geen 52/53 weken gaat selecteren ook dat is duidelijk.

Maar een pak waarde papieren gewoon 1scan  van dat pakket dan sla je de plank toch echt mis zonder een koppeling na de catalogus.

Zo kan ik niet plaatsen dat bij een kavel een boek wordt aangeboden waarin bij de omschrijving de bijlage is vermeld, en dat deze bijlage gewoon als apart item ter verkoop word aangeboden! dat kan natuurlijk niet!

De hoeveelheid, welke je hebt toegevoegd mag toch niet bepalend zijn of je je mening kan/mag geven.

Net zomin als de opmerking is verbeter/herstel veel items, maar dat kan wel je betrokkenheid  bij de catalogus weergeven, en die kan dan commercieel een veel grotere  waarde vertegenwoordigen.

En die gereageerd hebben kan je de betrokkenheid niet ontzeggen.

Maar goede afspraken daar begint het mee!

Whether Jos reacted calmly, let's leave that in the middle.

But as Morits also indicated if he had simply parked the lots,

there was a much less sharp response. And it could have just been solved quietly.

It is also not necessary to disconnect the auction or shops, and the fact that you have to earn money is also not an issue.

But you do need to maintain the link between the catalog and sales.

I can imagine the Donald Duck that offers a year, but then you can also indicate this very clearly. and that you will not select 52/53 weeks there, that is also clear.

But a package of valuable papers, just 1 scan of that package, then you really miss the mark without a link after the catalogue.

For example, I cannot state that a book is offered with a lot in which the attachment is stated in the description, and that this attachment is simply offered for sale as a separate item! of course you can't!

The amount you have added should not determine whether you can / may give your opinion.

Like the comment, there is not much to improve/repair items, but it can show your involvement with the catalog, which can then represent a much greater value commercially.

And those who have responded cannot be denied their involvement.

But good agreements, that's where it starts!

Dat ze, zich aangevallen voelend op hun eigen grondgebied de catalogus, het strijdtoneel hebben uitgebreid tot de veiling, het gebied van de "tegenstander", is dan begrijpelijjk.

Dat is in ieder geval mooi geformuleerd, pegag :-)

Over dat aansporen waar ik iets van zou weten: ik denk dat je nu doelt op het wel of niet invoeren van sets als 1 item, naar aanleiding van het willen aanbieden van complete encyclopediën bij boeken. Dat daar druk op is gezet is inderdaad niet goed. Wat me trouwens nog steeds wel goed lijkt is om de discussie te voeren hoe we Catawiki-breed omgaan met het opnemen van sets. Daar wordt in rubrieken niet altijd op dezelfde manier mee omgegaan.

maar veel beheerders vinden stiekem ook wel een beetje dat de catalogus van hun is en voelen zich in hoge mate verantwoordelijk voor de kwaliteit.

Dit grote verantwoordelijkheidsgevoel voor de kwaliteit bij beheerders merk ik natuurlijk ook en dat is iets wat ik geweldig vind. Ik heb daar grote waardering voor.

It is understandable that, feeling attacked in their own territory the catalog, they have extended the battlefield to the auction, the territory of the "adversary".

Anyway, that's nicely worded, pegag :-)

About that encouragement that I would know something about: I think you are now referring to whether or not to introduce sets as 1 item, as a result of wanting to offer complete encyclopaedias with books. It's really not good to put pressure on it. What still seems good to me, by the way, is to have a discussion about how we deal with recording sets on a Catawiki-wide basis. This is not always dealt with in the same way in sections.

but many administrators secretly think that the catalog is theirs and feel a high degree of responsibility for the quality.

Of course I also notice this great sense of responsibility for quality among managers and that is something I think is great. I greatly appreciate that.

René, thanks for the detailed answer and I now understand that you wanted to take the time to answer. I think you did that quickly, but luckily you did.

At least this is a good explanation of what the purpose of CataWiki as an organization is and what the role of everyone (collectors, administrators, auctioneers) is. / providers, shop owners and the CataWiki team).

I have a lot of fun with CataWiki and hope to use it for a long time to come and use all the components (I think that CataWiki will probably still have some expansion ideas on has the shelves that I will use at some point).

When I started mapping my collection through CataWiki, I noticed that some items had no image. This would have to do with the start of CataWiki and would diminish over time, as quality comes before quantity these days. This went well for a long time, until lots appeared at the auction that were associated with items without images. This has also given rise to a lot of discussion, but has been resolved over time. Now the current discussion about not linking all items started and I think that is logical, if there are very many. As long as good photos are placed in the explanatory photos and as far as the link is concerned, I think it is a good solution to link a number of special items from the lot with CataWiki. I believe the text has also been adapted in

I think that is a good solution.

Finally, I would like to say that I and I think many CataWiki users with me greatly appreciate your efforts. So we hope that you and Marco will enjoy working on CataWiki for a long time to come.

(A lot of text, but a long message often also has a long answer)

Rene,

A long message from you, but clear about everything that has been discussed!

Now it is clear to everyone who is responsible for what, and how the rules are regarding. catalog and auction.

By the way, what still seems good to me is to have the discussion on how we deal with the inclusion of sets Catawiki-wide

Is indeed a completely different discussion, but that being said, a set is database-technically the same as a combination offer. It is a super or meta item, made up of other items. The possibility to create such super items is now only possible in shops. If it could also be done in collections and (for / by administrators) in the database, you're done.

Ik heb de heftige discussie over de postzegel- en muntenveiling, die precies tijdens mijn 2,5 week vakantie plaats vond, zorgvuldig gelezen. Naast de inhoudelijke kwestie over wat er op de veiling aangeboden kan worden en hoe dat moet, vallen vooral twee dingen op. Er worden uitspraken gedaan over de basisgedachte van Catawiki, c.q. "het concept", "het idee", waar ik me niet in herken en dat is vreemd omdat ik deze basisgedachte ooit zelf heb gehad.

 En daarnaast zijn, helaas vooral door enkele beheerders, de meest basale fatsoensnormen een aantal keer ver overschreden

Dat het dik hout zaagt men planken was, klopt maar dit werd wel veroorzaakt door een afspraak welke niet bekend was bij beheerders

Catawiki handel te drijven. Vanaf dag 1 kon je dat al op de site doen. Ons idee was, en is, dat het het meest eerlijk en kansrijk is om onze eigen inkomstenstroom te koppelen aan de zaken die via Catawiki worden verkocht. Als iemand geld verdient aan onze site door een verkoop, dan leek het ons redelijk en haalbaar daar wat commissie over te ontvangen.

Juiste gedachte gang

Het alternatief is dat we verzamelaars geld gaan vragen voor het gebruik van de catalogus of het bijhouden van hun verzameling. Hier hebben we vanaf de allereerste planvorming echter bewust niet voor gekozen omdat dat het gebruik van Catawiki en de uitbreiding van de catalogus pas echt af zal remmen.

Dit is de juiste basis gedachte en ook om de know how welke er onder de verzamelaars is/was te gebruiken.

Daarnaast nog extra gebruik te maken van beheerders welke, een extra puls geven aan de catalogus.

In de eerste ruwe schetsen voor Catawiki staat, naast het verhandelen van objecten in shops, ook al een veiling ingetekend. Dat Catawiki qua opzet alleen maar zou zijn bedoeld als een catalogus en "de handel" er nu ineens ook bij wordt betrokken is simpelweg niet waar.

Dit is ook gewoon juist alleen en daar wringt de schoen de kijk van de verzamelaar om zij hobby zo goed mogelijk te presenteren , bots met de gedachte van de verkoper die kijkt met zo min mogelijk inspanning zoveel mogelijk cashen, uiteraard de goede (vaak ook verzamelaar) er buiten gelaten die er ook zijn!

En dat er, zoals iemand zei, een commerciële kant aan het ontstaan is die losgekoppeld moet worden van Catawiki, is dan ook echt onzin. Catawiki is zowel een catalogus waarin je je verzameling bij kunt houden als een plek waar verzamelobjecten worden verhandeld. Dat was vanaf het begin zo en dat zal ook zo blijven.

Dit is het juiste uitgangspunt.

Veel mensen beleven plezier aan het aanvullen van de catalogus. Veel andere mensen beleven weer veel plezier aan het uitbaten van hun eigen Catawiki-shop of aan het kopen en verkopen op onze veilingen. Het is uiteraard prima om een bepaald onderdeel van Catawiki interessanter te vinden dan een ander deel, maar misgun anderen niet daar wel plezier aan te beleven. Mensen die op het forum steeds maar weer al bij voorbaat, als een grijsgedraaide grammofoonplaat,

 (verkeerde beeldspraak lijkt me)

 in algemene zin negatief zijn over "de verkopers" of "de veilingkopers" moeten daar echt mee ophouden. Als het moeilijk lukt om op een normale manier respect op te brengen, bedenk dan in ieder geval dat hun commissie-bijdragen voor Catawiki, en dus ook voor de catalogus, van groot belang zijn.

Dat wordt ook niet ontkend maar het presenteren in je shop en veiling kan je ook mooi gebruik maken van de know how welke door verzamelars en beheerders, wordt gegeven  en ingevoerd!

Als ik zo de reacties lees van een aantal beheerders dan krijg ik de indruk dat zij in de veronderstelling verkeren dat zij de baas zijn. Harde woorden, onaanvaardbare eisen naar het bedrijf achter Catawiki ("je moet het zo doen, want anders..."), tot zelfs proberen ontslag voor een personeelslid af te dwingen.

Dit kan ook niet, en al zijn het geen personeelsleden

Maar noem mijn een bedrijf dat zoveel know how en inzet bezit zonder deze op de loonlijst hebben staan?

Natuurlijk wordt het enorm op prijs gesteld wat jullie beheerders, samen met de gebruikers, allemaal voor Catawiki in het algemeen en de catalogus in het bijzonder betekenen. Natuurlijk hebben beheerders meer invloed dan gewone gebruikers bij het bepalen van de koers van Catawiki. Natuurlijk kan er frustratie optreden als zaken volgens jou niet goed of niet snel genoeg worden opgepakt. Natuurlijk kan er irritatie ontstaan doordat er iets niet goed gaat of jouw advies niet wordt opgevolgd. Dan nog mag dat geen reden zijn om zo te ontsporen.

In mijn ogen zijn een aantal beheerders hun invloed in een rap tempo aan het verspelen. De ongenuanceerde botheid van enkele beheerders die met name in dit topic naar voren komt doet me twijfelen aan de geschiktheid als beheerder en lijkt mij voor Catawiki niet bepaald een visitekaartje om af te willen geven.

Maar hier had het personeelslid misschien met meer tact, professioneler kunnen reageren.

Beheerders zijn inderdaad het visitekaartje van de Catawiki-catalogus en daar horen in het contact met anderen, of het nu gebruikers zijn of mensen die bij Catawiki werken, de gangbare fatsoensnormen bij. Een beheerder dient die te respecteren, hoe groot zijn staat van dienst ook is.

Dat klopt

Dan de inhoudelijke kant van de zaak: wie beslist of iets op de veiling mag worden aangeboden en hoe dat in bijzondere situaties (veel items in een kavel etc.) precies moet gebeuren. Daar wil ik heel helder in zijn: onze veilingmeesters bepalen dat op basis van de situatie in hun aandachtsgebied. Dus als het op postzegelveilingen gangbaar is om ook interessante collecties te veilen, iets wat iedereen die ik uit de postzegelwereld spreek beaamt, dan kan de veilingmeester beslissen die toe te laten. En als het, naar inzicht van de veilingmeester, in een bepaalde situatie niet doenlijk is of vrijwel niets toevoegt om items aan de catalogus te koppelen dan kan deze besluiten het toch op te nemen in de veiling. Dat geldt voor alle veilingen. Ik kan me goed voorstellen dat als op de stripveiling 'Donald Duck weekblad' compleet als kavel wordt aangeboden, iets wat vast nog gaat gebeuren, dat de veilingmeester beslist om het ook op te nemen als de aanbieder niet alle 3.300 Donald Ducks heeft gekoppeld (al was het alleen maar omdat het technische problemen gaat geven als dat wel gebeurd).

Toch laat je een van de belangrijkste reden van het bestaansrecht van catawiki het unieke ,het extra laat je los.

(even niet mee genomen de jaargang Donald of een serie binnen postzegels of wat dan ook maar het gevaar dat er een boterhamzakjes munten worden aangeboden is dan wel de volgende stap)

Uiteraard is een veilingmeester wel altijd verantwoording schuldig aan zijn publiek en aan Marco en mij over de kavels in zijn veiling. Veilingmeesters voelen dat ook zo en doen in de praktijk hun uiterste best. Maar zoals iedereen maken ook zij wel eens een foutje en kan er eens iets zijn met de inhoud van een bepaald kavel zoals een onjuiste of onduidelijke presentatie. Ze verwerken vele honderden aangeboden kavels per week dus dat is onvermijdelijk. Als zoiets rustig wordt aangekaart dan kijken ze daar serieus naar, zo leert de ervaring.

En zo ervaar ik het niet

Het is absoluut niet de bedoeling dat veilingmeesters, of andere betrokkenen, beheerders onder druk zetten om af te wijken van de geldende regels voor de catalogus.

Als dat wel gebeurt dan kan er meteen naar mij worden geëscalAls dat wel gebeurt dan kan er meteen naar mij worden geëscaleerd en zal ik daar zeker iets aan doen.

En hier ging het dus fout het was vakantie tijd, tijdens een voetbalwedstrijd werd de veiling ook verschoven

Veel veilingaanbieders zijn ook gewoon gepassioneerde verzamelaars die ook wel eens wat verkopen en onze catalogus zelf vaak actief gebruiken en belangrijk vinden. Het blijkt, na analyse door Marco, dat veilingaanbieders gemiddeld veel meer aan de catalogus toevoegen dan de gemiddelde actieve verzamelaar op Catawiki (actief in de zin van verzamelaars met een collectie op Catawiki die wordt onderhouden). De door Marco eerder genoemde 5.000 toegevoegde items betrof alleen de nieuwe catalogus-items in veilingkavels in een bepaalde periode. Los van hun eigen veiling-items blijkt dat veilingaanbieders ook veel andere zaken toevoegen aan de catalogus. Bizar is het dat enkele forum-posters (ik heb het nu niet over beheerders) die moord en brand schreeuwden over de veilingaanbieders, zelf minder aan de catalogus toevoegen dan de gemiddelde veilingaanbieder.

Eerder heb ik al aangegeven het aantal items wat je toevoeg, mag toch geen maat zijn, neem dan ook de kwaliteit van het toevoegen mee En ik wil wel veel verzamelen maar heb de mogelijkheid niet

Terzijde nog: de aanleiding van alle commotie lag in een aantal kavels op de postzegel- en muntenveiling. Hoewel sommige van deze kavels in algemene zin (afbeelding, beschrijving, aantallen e.d.) absoluut beter beschreven hadden kunnen worden

Zeer zwak uitgedrukt

Ik ben het eigenlijk met Martinel en vele andere beheerders eens dat de beheerders geen verantwoordelijkheid hebben voor de Veiling, noch voor de Shops, dat zijn voor mij aparte zaken. Eigenlijk is dat een zaak tussen de Eigenaars en de Veilingmeesters.

Dat kan je doen maar dan laat je de koppeling met catalogus los.

Het moet toch zo zijn dat je iets met verwijzing na de catalogus toch pas kan doen als het item juist is ingevoerd en wanneer is dat?

En natuurlijk moeten veilingmeesters knopen kunnen doorhakken. Dus als er in de regels komt: 'De Veilingmeesters beslissen autonoom over het al dan niet aanvaarden van kavels', dan is alles opgelost.

Te simpel gesteld zou alleen kunnen zonder verwijzing met catalogus.

Dit is dus inderdaad de regel: catalogusbeheerders gaan over de catalogus, veilingmeesters gaan over de veiling. Catalogusbeheerders behandelen items die via de veiling komen net zoals andere items die in de catalogus worden ingevoerd. Ze benaderen de betreffende invoerders niet positiever maar ook niet negatiever. En veilingmeesters zetten geen druk op beheerders om af te wijken van de catalogusregels ten behoeve van de veiling. Uiteraard kan iedereen het rustig signaleren als er ergens iets beter kan in de catalogus of bij een veilingkavel. 

 Je zegt dus:  item kan alleen in veiling als beheer dit heeft geaccepteerd?

Tenslotte moet me dit nog van het hart: Marco en ik hebben Catawiki vooral ook opgericht om een leuke site te hebben waar we plezier aan kunnen beleven. We werken er met veel passie aan en de site zo te zien groeien geeft ons erg veel voldoening. De wijze waarop sommigen zich nu in de recente forumdiscussie over de postzegelveiling hebben opgesteld, dreigt dat plezier bij ons weg te halen. We passen er echter voor om ons plezier blijvend te laten bederven en daar in mee te gaan. Vooralsnog heb ik er vertrouwen in dat we hier gezamenlijk "gesterkt" uitkomen, nu er meer duidelijkheid is over rolverdeling en regels. We hebben al met z'n allen laten zien dat we samen heel veel kunnen bereiken. Hoe dan ook wil ik iedereen dringend verzoeken om nu in ieder geval rustig en met respect naar elkaar te reageren.

 Ik denk ook niet dat iemand aan jullie intentie twijfelt, iedereen heeft ook nadat Marco aangaf ik wil dit laten ruste tot Rene terug is zich daar aangehouden!

Maar ben aan de ene kant blij dat er zo betrokken is gereageerd en de les is blus het vuurtje, voordat hij zich ontwikkeld tot een uitslaande brand

I have carefully read the heated discussion about the stamp and coin auction, which took place exactly during my 2.5 week vacation. In addition to the substantive issue of what can be offered at the auction and how this should be done, two things stand out in particular. Statements are made about the basic idea of Catawiki, ie "the concept", "the idea", in which I do not recognize myself and that is strange because I once had this basic idea myself.

And in addition, unfortunately, especially by a few administrators, the most basic standards of decency have been far exceeded a number of times

It is true that the thick wood they saw was planks, but this was caused by an agreement that was not known to administrators

Catawiki to trade. You could do that on the site from day 1. Our idea was, and is, that it is most fair and promising to link our own income stream to the things that are sold through Catawiki . If someone makes money from our site through a sale, we thought it reasonable and feasible to receive some commission on that.

Right mindset

The alternative is that we will charge collectors money for using the catalog or for maintaining their collection. However, we deliberately chose not to do this from the very first planning stage, because that will really slow down the use of Catawiki and the expansion of the catalogue.

This is the right basic idea and also to use the know-how that is/was among the collectors.

In addition, to make extra use of administrators who give an extra pulse to the catalog.

In addition to trading objects in shops, the first rough sketches for Catawiki also include an auction. It is simply not true that Catawiki is only intended as a catalog and that "trade" is now suddenly involved.

This is also just the only thing and that's where the collector's view pinches to present his hobby as best as possible, collide with the idea of the seller who looks to cash in as much as possible with as little effort as possible, of course the good (often also collector ) left out that there are too!

And that, as someone said, a commercial side is emerging that needs to be disconnected from Catawiki is really nonsense. Catawiki is both a catalog to keep track of your collection and a place where collectibles are traded. That was the case from the beginning and it will continue to be so .

This is the correct starting point.

Many people enjoy adding to the catalogue. Many other people enjoy running their own Catawiki shop or buying and selling at our auctions. It is of course fine to find a certain part of Catawiki more interesting than another part, but don't begrudge others to enjoy it. People on the forum who again and again in advance, like a grayed-out gramophone record ,

(wrong image I think)

being generally negative about "the sellers" or "the auction buyers" should really stop doing that. If it is difficult to show respect in a normal way, remember that their commission contributions are of great importance to Catawiki, and therefore also to the catalogue.

That is not denied, but presenting in your shop and auction you can also make good use of the know-how that is given and entered by collectors and administrators!

When I read the reactions of a number of administrators, I get the impression that they are under the assumption that they are in charge. Harsh words, unacceptable demands to the company behind Catawiki ("you have to do it this way, because otherwise..."), even trying to force the dismissal of a staff member.

This is also not possible, and even if they are not employees

But name me a company that has so much know-how and commitment without having it on the payroll ?

Of course it is greatly appreciated what your administrators, together with the users, all mean for Catawiki in general and the catalog in particular. Of course, administrators have more influence than regular users in determining Catawiki's price. Of course, frustration can arise if, in your opinion, things are not handled properly or quickly enough. Of course, irritation can arise because something goes wrong or your advice is not followed. Still, that shouldn't be a reason to go off the rails like that.

In my view, a number of managers are rapidly losing their influence. The oversimplified bluntness of some administrators, which is particularly evident in this topic, makes me doubt the suitability as an administrator and does not seem to me to be a calling card for Catawiki.

But here the member of staff could perhaps have reacted with more tact, more professionally.

Administrators are indeed the calling card of the Catawiki catalog and that includes the usual standards of decency in contact with others, whether they are users or people who work at Catawiki. A manager should respect it, no matter how great his track record is.

That's right

Then the substantive side of the matter: who decides whether something may be offered at the auction and exactly how this should be done in special situations (many items in a lot, etc.). I want to be very clear about this: our auctioneers determine this on the basis of the situation in their area of interest. So if it is customary at stamp auctions to also auction interesting collections, something everyone I speak to from the stamp world agrees, then the auctioneer can decide to allow it. And if, in the opinion of the auctioneer, it is not feasible in a certain situation or adds virtually nothing to link items to the catalogue, he can still decide to include it in the auction. This applies to all auctions. I can well imagine that if 'Donald Duck weekly' is offered as a complete lot at the comics auction, something that will probably still happen, that the auctioneer will decide to include it even if the seller has not linked all 3,300 Donald Ducks (already if only because it will cause technical problems if it does).

Yet you let go of one of the most important reasons for catawiki's existence, the unique, the extra.

(Not included the volume of Donald or a series of inside stamps or whatever, but the danger that a sandwich bag of coins will be offered is the next step)

Of course an auctioneer is always accountable to his public and to Marco and me about the lots in his auction. Auctioneers also feel this way and do their utmost in practice. But like everyone else, they sometimes make a mistake and there may be something wrong with the content of a certain lot, such as an incorrect or unclear presentation. They process many hundreds of offered lots per week, so that is inevitable. If something like this is raised calmly, then they look at it seriously, as experience shows.

And that's not how I feel

It is absolutely not the intention that auctioneers, or other parties involved, put pressure on administrators to deviate from the applicable rules for the catalogue.

If that does happen, you can immediately escalate to me. If that happens, you can immediately escalate to me and I will certainly do something about it.

And here it went wrong it was holiday time, during a football match the auction was also moved

Many auction providers are also just passionate collectors who sometimes sell something and often actively use our catalog themselves and find it important. It appears, after analysis by Marco, that auction providers add much more to the catalog on average than the average active collector on Catawiki (active in the sense of collectors with a collection on Catawiki that is being maintained). The 5,000 added items mentioned earlier by Marco only concerned the new catalog items in auction lots in a certain period. Apart from their own auction items, it appears that auction providers also add many other items to the catalogue. It is bizarre that some forum posters (I'm not talking about administrators now) who shouted murder and fire about the auction providers, add less to the catalog than the average auction provider.

I have already indicated the number of items you add may not be a size, so also include the quality of the addition. And I want to collect a lot, but I don't have the option

As an aside: the reason for all the commotion lay in a number of lots at the stamp and coin auction. Although some of these lots in a general sense (image, description, numbers, etc.) could definitely have been described better

Very weakly expressed

I actually agree with Martinel and many other administrators that the administrators have no responsibility for the Auction, nor for the Shops, which are separate matters for me. Actually, that is a matter between the Owners and the Auctioneers.

You can do that, but then you let go of the link with the catalogue.

It must be the case that you can only do something with a reference after the catalog if the item has been entered correctly and when is that?

And of course auctioneers must be able to make decisions. So if the rules say: 'The Auctioneers decide autonomously whether or not to accept lots', then everything is solved.

Put too simply, it would only be possible without a reference with a catalogue.

So this is indeed the rule: catalog managers are in charge of the catalogue, auctioneers are in charge of the auction. Catalog managers treat items that come through the auction just like any other item entered into the catalog. They approach the relevant importers neither more positively nor more negatively. And auctioneers do not put pressure on administrators to deviate from the catalog rules for the benefit of the auction. Of course, everyone can safely signal if something can be improved somewhere in the catalog or at an auction lot.

So you say: item can only be auctioned if management has accepted this?

Finally, I have to say this: Marco and I founded Catawiki mainly to have a nice site that we can enjoy. We work on it with a lot of passion and seeing the site grow like this gives us a lot of satisfaction. The way in which some have now positioned themselves in the recent forum discussion about the stamp auction threatens to take that pleasure away from us. However, we are careful not to let our fun be spoiled permanently and go along with it. For the time being I am confident that we will come out of this together "strengthened" now that there is more clarity about the division of roles and rules. Together we have already shown that we can achieve a lot together. In any case, I would like to urge everyone to at least respond to each other calmly and with respect.

I also don't think anyone doubts your intention, everyone has also stopped there after Marco indicated I want to let this rest until Rene returns!

But on the one hand I am glad that the response has been so involved and the lesson is to put out the fire before it develops into a raging fire

So you say: item can only be auctioned if management has accepted this?

I do not write that and I certainly do not mean it.

The possibility to create such super items is now only possible in shops. If it could also be done in collections and (for / by administrators) in the database, you're done.

That's an interesting thought. I'm going to think about it and maybe we can also talk about it in Breda when I see you (I'll be there on Saturday).

This is also just right alone and there the shoe pinches the collector's view to present their hobby as well as possible, clashing with the thought of the seller who watches as much as possible with as little effort as possible, of course. The good ones (often also collectors) out there!

Be aware that the majority of collectors are also sellers. With your frequently expressed opinion about sellers, you unnecessarily hurt many people. Because some users do not always have / use the wiki feeling, you do not always have to put a large group of users on the same brush.

@Collectioneur

I don't shave anyone over a comb!

The only thing I ask if you offer something don't sell nonsense take a look at 942715

this item has been entered by an administrator

is also for sale nothing wrong with the price everyone should know myself I have repeatedly asked importers and providers show that you have the first pressing I asked Rene please agree contact

indicated to Marco

(that is the only one who gave a hopeful answer, I give to Rene and he will respond to that)

I have that Eagle Eye item indicated to you you casually say yes that is possible, reference after the book item and separate item attachment, while attachment is described with item of the book! Also that it was only with the first issue you had to send the competition before a certain date.

Collectors also don't sell an item, I don't accuse anyone, only I ask for clarity. I'm not talking about sellers offering their items well.

But I'm talking about sellers offering items with misrepresentations nonsense stories everyone rises as a reprint when 1 edition is offered and rightly so, I do the same.

Besef wel dat dat het merendeel van de verzamelaars ook verkoper is.

strips verzamelaars 200x60 shops 60 x60

postzegels verzamelaars 94 x 60 shops 29 x 60

boeken verzamelaars103 x 60 shops 28 x 60

munten verzamelaars 59 x 60 shops 16 x 60

platen verzamelaars 55 x60 shops 14 x 60

nu heb ik geen rekenmachine bij de hand maar het merendeel is verzamelaar 2/3 gewoon van de site gehaald

Let goed op ik heb niets tegen de handelaren verre van het enige wat ik wil maak de catalogus nu eens samen beide moeten een inspanning verrichte de verzamelaar en de shop

Be aware that the majority of collectors are also sellers.

comics collectors 200x60 shops 60 x60

stamp collectors 94 x 60 shops 29 x 60

book collectors103 x 60 shops 28 x 60

coin collectors 59 x 60 shops 16 x 60

record collectors 55 x60 shops 14 x 60

now I don't have a calculator at hand but most of them are just taken from the site

Pay attention I have nothing against the dealers far from the only thing I want now put the catalog together both have to make an effort the collector and the shop

and maybe we can also talk about it in Breda when I see you (I will be there on Saturday)

Unfortunately I have obligations this weekend that I cannot or do not want to get out of , so I can't go to Breda, but I'll be posting something early next week. In my view it could also be a solution for items with attachments and related problems.

@Dick52,

You write:

I don't shave anyone!

The problem is that you does consistently. In countless forum posts meanwhile. Please try to become aware that you do come across as that.

I have repeatedly asked importers and providers show you have the first pressing I have it to Rene asked please contact us

Again, because you are asking again, I will not contact suppliers or collectors whether they actually have a certain item in a certain pressing or other issue at home to have. There are 3.5 million items on offer and there are 10 million in collections. That will be quite a few home visits if we have to check that ... For more expensive items it is now mandatory to add your own images when you put something up for sale. That may ease your concern.

Unfortunately I have obligations this weekend that I cannot or do not want to get out of, so I cannot go to Breda, but I will be posting something at the beginning of next week. In my view it could also be a solution for items with attachments and related problems.

Too bad you can't. I am very curious about your mail.

@ Rene,

Is a clear answer!

I would like to apologize to all those shops, which I misjudged.

My idea has always been to create a catalog that could be consulted by everyone and that it would be as complete as possible with all the variation an item might have.

Of course, this excuse also applies to the auction masters.

(Let me first of all say that I never wanted to hurt anyone personally).

In addition, the 3 large shops in (my) section

jessica79 Shop, Pitske's shop, baji Shop, which I often requested very often in the past puts the item completely in the catalog. And who eventually did.

Maybe my profile does not fit the team and you learn to live with that.

Although that may have 4 years of effort. (I've heard wisdom comes with age), let me take advantage of that.

This chapter is closed for me.