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March 27, 2023 13:46
Helv
No one can place #9691585 as an item.
Rejected.
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Helv
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March 27, 2023 13:47
Now I don't know whether that filter is only active for Magazines or also in other categories. Should I find out. But please do not add pages/photos from the erotic magazines.
Last week I came across Japanese erotic prints . Then you have an example.
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  • Catalogue manager
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March 27, 2023 14:17
Now I don't know whether that filter is only active for Magazines or also in other categories. Should I find out.

Postcards are filtered by Theme = Naturism
Books are filtered by Type = Naturism
Film is filtered by Genre = Erotica
At Other there is a filter on Theme = Nudism (Eroticism is added)
Magazines are filtered by Genre = Eroticism and/or Naturism
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March 27, 2023 14:17
Every collector has "clippings" in his/her/whatever collection, me too. But the problem with a catalog like Last Dodo is that a clipping is really just another broken object. What you then include in the catalog, or at least want to include, is that other object. The content of the clip in question should then be part of the description of that object. But that's the ideal world. In reality, there are a lot of orphaned clippings, of which it may not even be known where they come from. So that continues to compromise and muddle along. But the starting point should still be to strive to include the original object in the catalog and not to include clippings if the source is already in the catalog. To make it visual, if there is a collection of poems in the catalogue, it is not really the intention to tear out a single poem and then enter it as a clipping. Yet that is a bit what we have all done for years and also found normal.
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Helv
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March 27, 2023 14:22
From a stamp collector's point of view, clippings from postal stationery seem to me to have a high collector's value. They rightly have their place in the 'Other' section.
In the past, these value indications (printed franking value on a postal stationery) were sometimes cut out, as was the case with Stamps (on letters and postcards). The latter were then soaked. Clippings from postal stationery were put in the collection as clippings.

Mere stamp collectors did not soak the stamps, but cut out the stamp with cancellation. They were then put in stock books (or something similar).

But as Dick aptly put it: for postal stationery, a clipping is a mutilated postal stationery. Anyway.
There is already a separate section for stamp collectors. It is important that the entire area with stamps is cut out and not just the stamp. If it is only a cut-out, pasted stamp, I consider it as normal used stamp. It is also better not to deviate from some old stamps, because the ink cannot withstand that.
Properly setting up the postmarking section is another story. Hopefully someone will come up with a brilliant idea for this one day.

For clippings of postal stationery, it is worth considering moving them to Stamps/Postal Stationery when the new structure/subdivision is rolled out.
Personally, however, I would rather not allow these items separately in the catalog and only include the entire postal stationery. The individual collector can then include a scan of the cutting in his own collection.
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  • Catalogue administrator
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March 27, 2023 14:26
but Clippings must add value to the catalogue.
I understand your intent, but I believe that an administrator should not disapprove an item that is not explicitly or implicitly prohibited by the manual (or legal rules).

For the VISION collection, #9691585 had added value, and you can't say it shouldn't be in the catalog because you don't see that value. There must be an objective criterion.
So if you do not want certain items in the catalogue, you must define in the Handbook the minimum requirements that an item must meet, so that it is clear to every user and every administrator where the boundary lies.
I think that's next to impossible in the Other section, but - more importantly - I think it's unnecessary to try to keep this section "clean". The catalog has no limit and even if you don't understand why someone collects something, it won't get in anyone's way in the Other section. So why bother with that?
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March 27, 2023 14:34
stripspeldjes some items items in other has 0 collectors, 0 shops and 0 seekers (and has been sold 0 times). I would expect there to be at least 1 collector or 1 shop, or that a sale has taken place (formally searchers can't add anything).

By the way, I'm curious if the catalog really has no limit. There are costs associated with data.
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March 27, 2023 14:37
But the starting point should still be to strive to include the original object in the catalog and not to include clippings if the source is already in the catalog.
I agree with that. You can also come up with valid arguments for this based on the principle that there should be no duplications in the catalog (or actually in the database).

To take an example of VISION anyway: I don't see what the point is #9539521 if #9539517 was entered four minutes earlier.
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March 27, 2023 14:43
Helv I do see 1 entry. Is it mandatory to put an item in your collection or shop?
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March 27, 2023 15:05
stripspeldjes I'm talking purely about a personal expectation here. Why enter something as a user that you do not collect, want to sell or are looking for, especially if it is not clear a priori that it is a collector's item

This is also linked to the question of whether you really want to allow everything in LD, or whether you want to set limits. The answer to that question is explicitly not up to me, but I am curious about it.
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March 27, 2023 15:10
And of course there are limits, but I don't expect problems in terms of data storage, even if the catalog were to grow by a factor of ten thousand. (I don't expect to see that again, but I do believe it's potentially possible.)
The financial limit may be reached sooner, but if you don't have confidence in the future, then you better not start such an all-encompassing project ;-)
The share of "nonsensical" items in the catalog will in any case (in my expectation) always remain a negligible percentage.
Everyone has a closet or drawer full of junk, but how many people think it's worth clearing it out? You just ignore it.
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  • Catalogue administrator
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March 27, 2023 15:16
to put an item in your collection or shop
Helv
No, not mandatory. With the stamp section, we have the ambition to create/maintain a catalogue. No collection.

There are users who organize their collections using the catalog. Without indicating a collection or search list.
Or who, based on the marketplace, which is based on the underlying catalogue, go on a 'raid' in order to place a neat order.

Clippings do not belong in the stamp section. There we must limit ourselves to the main issue (what has been for sale as a postage valid object or has been for sale at the postal counters, physically or digitally) and the side issue (what has been made philatelic with such objects).
Clippings from postal stationery have not been made nor sold in this way.
There are also no philatelic economic streams that had clippings as their subject (they were not cut out in numbers for sale in the stamp trade).

But, they are very valuable. Hence rightly in Other its own place (object): Clipping - Postal Stationery.
Postal stationery, on the other hand, in the category 'Other' is incorrect. Those items belong in the stamp section. Such things have been sold as postage valid objects at the counters of the Postal Service. Just like stamps, blocks, booklets and sheets. Now they are spread over Other, Postcards and Stamps. There's no line in that.

Other types of clippings can also be valuable in my opinion, depending on the point of view. From a philatelic point of view, a Granny clipping is not valuable. From another point of view it can be valuable, with meaning. Every person is unique, and so is every collector. It's not because one thinks something 'but nothing' that everyone thinks that way.
Nevertheless, it is still recommended to provide a little more clarification in certain cases, via details. Why. That can bring a 'but nothing' collector to insights.

A theme collection, for example, can be very valuable enriched with clippings from newspapers and magazines. Apart from that theme collection ... 'but nothing'. And behind every themed collection there is always a collector.
The question remains how we should deal with this at LD. Once started on LD with one theme section, and it seems to be in a state of dissolution in the meantime ...
I still think it's best to include clippings, if they are valuable to you in your collection, in the 'Other' section with the appropriate label via 'Object'.
An alternative additional interface, based on theme instead of object/land, would then allow a different view of 'collection'.

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  • Catalogue administrator
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March 27, 2023 15:21
However, for this a number of fields/lists such as 'Theme' and 'Country' must be generalized in all categories (the same base/list/structure). And we are very far from that at the moment.
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March 27, 2023 15:36
A bit off topic by now, but indeed, Theme sections are something programmers should get their teeth into. A category like "Aviation" can also exist with items from different object categories, and the same goes for "Philately". The basic structure of the database is separate from this (after all, not everything is in the order of input (item number), it is a matter of presentation).

Before the formatting was revamped a few years ago, some sections had a few buttons at the top of their main page that pointed to related categories. My memory is failing me a bit, but under Books there was a link to Picture Albums, for example, under Comics a link to Comic bookplates and prints, under Coins to Penningen. I'm still sad that those thematic links are gone.
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  • Catalogue manager
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March 27, 2023 15:48
I understand your intent, but I believe that an administrator should not disapprove an item that is not explicitly or implicitly prohibited by the manual (or legal rules).

Why does everything have to be described far behind the decimal point these days? My predecessor tossed out thousands of such items, without a rooster crowing. As an administrator you have a reasonable feeling of what may or may not belong in the catalog. If we have to describe this exactly for each category, it will take us years to record for each object which item may or may not be placed.
What pegag has described is a clear direction. If someone still wants to include a specific photo from a magazine in their collection, they can always add their own photos to the collected item.

You set the right example with #9539521 . If the importer wants to collect such a picture, he can put the item #9539517 in his collection and add the clipping as his own picture. No administrator needs to worry about that.
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March 27, 2023 15:52
If you look at it very black and white, the rule is that an object in the catalog is by definition in pristine new condition. And now you can say a lot about clippings, but that is certainly not the case. In that sense, a clipping for the collector should work just like a book with its dust jacket missing. The catalog contains the new object, a book with dust jacket, a complete magazine. And in your own collection it says what your own copy is like, a book without a dust jacket, a loose page from the magazine, with your own photos of your own book or clipping.
And yes, I haven't done it that way myself in the past and we're certainly not going to throw out everything people have entered, but we should try to make new inputs more consistent with how the catalog and collections should work.
This is called progressive insight.
Just as we are slowly but surely trying to get rid of all theme sections (in the catalogue). Themes should be arranged on a collection level, not on a catalog level (there was someone here who collected third editions of books that also had a fifth edition)
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March 27, 2023 15:53
By the way, I'm curious if the catalog really has no limit. There are costs associated with data.

Now that we also have income, that cost aspect is less important again, so there is no limit.

A bit off topic by now, but indeed, Theme sections are something that the programmers have to sink their teeth into. A section like "Aviation" can also exist with items from different item categories

Beats. That's the idea, but it hasn't been realized yet. But we will definitely succeed again.

My memory is failing me a bit, but under Books there was a link to Picture Albums, for example, under Comics a link to Comic bookplates and prints, under Coins to Penningen

Right we had these links. But those were not so much thematic references, but more related headings so that importers would not be too quick to enter them twice because they are overlooked in the related heading. Has indeed been lost in the new design. Sometimes you have to make choices and the current site is unfortunately already very complex for new users, according to regular feedback on this. As an experienced user, you don't really think about that.
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  • Catalogue administrator
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March 27, 2023 16:25
As an administrator you have a reasonable feeling of what may or may not belong in the catalog.
That's right, for the section that I manage and of which I therefore have sufficient expertise. But even then I think I should be able to explain to a user why I disapprove something. Not because I've personally decided it doesn't belong in the catalogue, but because there's a reasoned consensus.

I disagreed with Arco several times, but he was always able to explain in great detail why I was wrong ;-)

In the Other section, the definitions are much more vague. That is not to say that you and I always disagree, but I am more inclined to doubt and decide in favor of the importer.
As I said, I don't worry about those few questionable items. There are larger problems, such as incorrect or incomplete descriptions of items that are important for the catalog.
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March 27, 2023 18:55
Postcards are filtered by Theme = Naturism
Books are filtered by Type = Naturism
Film is filtered by Genre = Erotica
At Other there is a filter on Theme = Nudism (Eroticism is added)
Magazines are filtered by Genre = Eroticism and/or Naturism
Perhaps it would be wise to turn on this filter in Prints as well?

And photos? These fall under other, but I don't see a term of nudism or anything at e.g. # 9573615 (scarce-clad pin-up),
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March 27, 2023 20:17
And photos? These fall under other, but I don't see a term of nudism or anything at e.g. # 9573615 (scarce-clad pin-up),

Of course, those terms are not added automatically, users and/or administrators will have to do that. It is therefore about preventing decent images from being displayed on the Home or Section page. Therefore, users/administrators should be especially alert to the newly entered items.
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  • Catalogue administrator
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March 27, 2023 22:15

Of course, those terms are not added automatically, users and/or administrators will have to do that. It is therefore about preventing decent images from being displayed on the Home or Section page. Therefore, users/administrators should be especially alert to the newly entered items.

Wouldn't it be better to give catalog-wide an extra field "18+ image" to every item that, when checked, prevents the image from popping up in places where you don't want it? Simply check or uncheck when entering image 1.
These themes of nudism, eroticism, etc. are of course an ugly detour for the desired result here. Such a theme should refer to the content, not the cover. And it will not be easy for you to find a nudist who will want to label nudism as erotic, on the contrary. ;)

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March 27, 2023 22:28
pegag seems like a good idea, but will probably take time.
Collectioneur I saw you added erotica to the Theme. If that's the solution for now, I've learned something.
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  • Catalogue administrator
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March 28, 2023 08:28
And it won't be easy for you to find a nudist who will want to label nudism as erotic
pegag I totally agree with you

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March 28, 2023 08:50
Wouldn't it be better to give catalog-wide an extra field "18+ image" to every item that, when checked, prevents the image from popping up in places where you don't want it?

Good suggestion, passed on.
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March 28, 2023 10:37
Isn't that a lot of work, just to keep a limited number of “unwanted” images from two overview pages?
I have no objections in principle, it is certainly the most accurate way to make the selection, but perhaps a bit impractical.

How does it work, by the way, is it just the images that are not shown, or is the entire item ignored? And how often does it occur?

At Catawiki, some auctions are also classified as “18+” where you have to confirm your age. I always doubt whether something like that doesn't have the opposite effect, that you draw attention to it.
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