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January 27, 2023 23:30
Loriot
The first question is whether this envelope was ever actually sent .
Second question is who made the cover:
- Suppose the cover is pre-printed and stamped by the publisher, then I will never take it home, type my address on it and later go back to the post office to send it (because then she will get an extra 2nd stamp during the post process). You can turn it how you want, an FDC I can at most manually write down my address on the spot and put it directly on the bus (unless you live super close to the post office or take your typewriter everywhere).
- Suppose the cover is individually made, then I pre-made a blank cover with my typed address on it, stick the seal on it and have it stamped. But then it's home industry.

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January 27, 2023 23:51
postmaster
It's probably just me, but there's something that sticks:
5. A stamp other than the special FDC stamp, but with the relevant date of cancelling, will be included once.
- An illustrated cover with any stamp from any post office is an FDC? By the way, what is the chance that what I make myself has been produced in an edition?
- A white cover with the correct FDC stamp is not an FDC?
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az60
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January 28, 2023 00:58
I therefore believe that all the criteria of the manual have been met.
Although I completely agree with the second half of your post, I disagree with your conclusion. The definition says that the envelope has to be especially illustrated. The stamp and the cancellation are no part of the illustration, neither is the typed or written address. What remains is a white envelope and therefore not all the criteria have been met. Not everybody agrees with the definition, but the discussion is mainly about where envelope #9327375 should be placed, since (within this definition) it's not an FDC.
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January 28, 2023 01:31
az60
What is meant by especially illustrated?
The envelope contains two postmarks: one canceling the two two stamps and the second one without any purpose, probably just meant for illustration.
And to be honest: we don't see the back side of the envelope to certify that it is blank.
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  • January 28, 2023 08:27
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January 28, 2023 08:27
Thanks postmaster, change of address has been indicated. End of discussion.
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January 28, 2023 11:33
In other words:

"if the basic envelope is not illustrated -> 'Other / Cancellations'."

1. Many items will be allowed to be moved. Especially from the Netherlands, Suriname, Netherlands Antilles, New Guinea. Shall I start already ?
For the devoted collectors the procedure is: in an empty field of the item you put: ' WRONG SECTION -> Other / Cancellations '.

2. Any FDC where the image does not show an illustration on the envelope must be removed from the stamp section.
In other words: any FDC without an image ... After all, you must be able to determine whether
- the item does indeed exist;
- an illustrated cover has been used.
For dedicated collectors, the procedure is: in the title (NL) you place:
' DOUBLURE of: not allowed item (own scan required) '.

After all the nonsense about FDC and the situation on LD that is now not workable for a real FDC collector (I am an FDC collector for the sake of it), this history will yield one remarkable advantage: a very large part of imageless items will be removed. Irrevocable. Finally. They have long been on the liver of myself and many collector users on LD. I regularly get comments about it via PM. When they're gone I don't have to keep explaining why, and that people who don't know anything about FDCs want the items to be kept (waiting for the good fairy with her magic wand, you know...).

" Every disadvantage 'has' its advantage" said the greatest footballer of all time ever.
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January 28, 2023 11:58
Collectioneur
There are already 50 to 60 marked with 'WRONG SECTION -> Other / Cancellations (no illustrated envelope)'
One of them didn't even have an envelope at all lol (but it is marked as FDC on LD, so I assume it's also about the cancellation).
Another even has a certificate from an inspector (such an inspection with a certificate alone costs more than 100 euros) in which it is confirmed in black and white that it is an FDC.
At least according to the internationally valid definition of an FDC, not according to the Dutch NVPH Official definition ...
see #4745505

Soon I will continue, then I will start with the imageless one. Make my day! Operation major clean-up has started, entirely on the basis of the agreements included in the manual.
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  • January 28, 2023 12:31
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January 28, 2023 12:31
az60
I think you meant this:
https://nl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eerstedagenvelop
With that link, as indicated earlier, things become clearer again, but everyone here is talking about an FDC, right?
So good idea for me :-)
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January 28, 2023 13:40
Charles1971 Raoul62
Nice to see that one decides to end the discussion and that the other immediately takes action.
But are other collectors no longer allowed to respond and no longer have an opinion?
With us they call this unprepared and ill-considered decisions. :-(
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January 28, 2023 14:17
I call that exemplary pressing the facts with the nose.
If so, then so be it. Decided has been decided (it has been stated in the handbook for more than a year now). Now that other collectors are still allowed to respond = the figs after Easter. It has been decided for a long time.
You know how deep it is with me, as a collector .
It doesn't bother me because I have a solution for myself regarding my own collection of FDC, FDS and Publibels. No way back.

Once it is in the manual, it MUST be applied that way. Without exception. And for that application, as an administrator , I am willing to lend my cooperation.
I think afterwards that it was not all meant that way ... (we have the word 'stupid' for that in Flemish).
It is so or it is not so.

Even WiKiPedia alludes to what I think of it: 'In general, however, in the Netherlands the term 'first day envelope' is understood to mean ...'.
LD is a world catalog, for users from all over the world. It is not an exclusive toy (anymore) for one country.
What is called 'Official FDC' in the Netherlands is, in my opinion, 'Cinderella' according to the definition of LD: worthless. Made purely by commerce, just to cheat the collector of money. Just like the thousands of illegal issues (blocks and sheets) that are made in Russia. Very far from what was (and should be) an FDC initially.
The image (illustration) may be beautiful, cute and/or colorful.

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January 28, 2023 14:18
It has been decided for a year now (see handbook). When can you speak of 'ill-considered decisions'?
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  • January 28, 2023 15:23
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January 28, 2023 15:23
At least according to the internationally valid definition of an FDC, not according to the Dutch NVPH official definition..

This comment raises the question of what the international definition of a First Day Cover is.
As a layman I have no idea where and by whom something like this is/is being recorded, so I'm just going to do some magic.
I come across these from the BFDC (British First Day Covers):

What is a First Day Cover?


In brief, first day covers are specially designed envelopes with attractive Royal Mail stamps and pictorial postmarks. These very desirable collectors' items are ideal for that unusual gift and look great framed. If you are looking for a gift, try our
themes section - where you will find over a hundred different themes to choose from ranging from Aircraft to Wildlife. Many of the first day covers on this site have also been signed by famous people: stars, politicians, celebrities etc.

For those who want a more in depth description of what first day covers are all about, the following notes should answer all of your queries.

A First Day Cover is a specially designed envelope, bearing newly issued postage stamps which were postmarked on the first day that those stamps were placed on sale by the Post Office. The following three elements comprise every First Day Cover, viz:
  1. The Covers (i.e. the envelope)
  2. The Postmarks
  3. The Stamps
   
It looks very similar to our definition.

The English Wikipedia writes this:
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
A first day of issue cover or first day cover (FDC) is a postage stamp on a cover, postal card or stamped envelope franked on the first day the issue is authorized for use [1] within the country or territory of the stamp-issuing authority . Sometimes the issue is made from a temporary or permanent foreign or overseas office. Covers that are postmarked at sea or their next port of call will carry a Paquebot postmark. [2] There will usually be a first day of issue postmark , frequently a pictorial cancellation , indicating the city and date where the item was first issued, and "first day of issue" is often used to refer to this postmark. Depending on the policy of the nation issuing the stamp, official first day postmarks may sometimes be applied to covers weeks or months after the date indicated.

This differs because there is no Specially designed Envelope.

But the connoisseurs of the international stamp world will undoubtedly agree with the requested (recognised) international definition of a First Day Cover.
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  • January 28, 2023 15:41
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January 28, 2023 15:41
Collectioneur
That discussion 'what is an FDC' was fiercely conducted eighteen months ago, months on end. I then wrote down my point of view and vision on this.
Once decided, it no longer matters.

There definitely was. It's been in the manual for over a year now .
That's the deal at LD: what appears in the handbook.

This should not be discussed again and again (at least not every year for 6 months).
And even if it doesn't work for me as a collector: that's the deal, that's how we follow it (as user and as administrator). That's just how it works.

In the meantime, more than 100 FDCs have already been indicated to leave for the section 'Other -> Postmarks'. I've already watched about 3% of the FDCs on LD. In other words, hundreds more will certainly follow.
Spend a little less time on the catalog (stamps), the collection, the forum ... and a few weeks of good work and I will have marked them all.

What I indicate has no illustration on the envelope. The definition in the manual clearly says "illustrated edition envelope."
On 27/01/2023 at 22:02 Daan tenandere also indicated:
can possibly be placed in the cancellations section under other

In other words, they must be moved. There is no way back.
Anyone who now comes up with the addition 'that definition, that was just for fun' does not seem credible. My thought. Whoever says A must swallow. Point.

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az60
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January 28, 2023 15:41
Collectioneur
I think that definition should be there, but it's secondary. The conclusion is that there are collectors who believe that only the illustrated envelopes are sufficient. But there are, in my opinion, at least as many collectors who also save the blank envelopes. For them, the stamp with the first day of issue is decisive.
LastDodo is meant to keep track of your collection. If you take the broad definition, then everyone can keep track of the collection in his/her own way. If you opt for the limited view, many collectors will fall by the wayside. In principle, I would therefore opt for a broad definition based on the LastDodo idea.
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az60
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January 28, 2023 15:54
Raoul62
I'm sorry Raoul, but sticking to a decision to stick to a decision is far more unwise. The fact that the earth was flat and the sun rotated on the earth has been held for centuries. Now we know better. That is called progressive insight. Knowledge is increasing, insights change due to new experiences and there are always new developments, partly due to commerce. It is better to adjust a definition than to use it as a straitjacket/straitjacket, where all sorts of things have to be crammed in that don't fit.
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January 28, 2023 15:58
Anyone who now comes up with the addition 'that definition, that was just for fun' does not seem credible. My thought. Whoever says A must swallow. Point.

The point is that you yourself bring this up again and again and say that you do not agree with this. You use the argument of the "International definition" of an FDC.
So please provide that recognized international definition so we can talk about it or stop saying every time you want a different definition of the FDC.
Now you can of course say that you are only asking to strictly follow the handbook, but that is semantic posturing.
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January 28, 2023 16:02
az60
I've tried enough, but finally decided. And that decision is written in black and white. Despite my warning that the definition is shaky on all sides, and not workable for an FDC collector.
I have repeated and repeated the definition of an FDC ad nauseam in every previous discussion, and it has been decided otherwise.

I follow the decision as an administrator in the stamp section on LD.
as a collector I don't use LD for those things, I decided for myself last year how I'm going to fix it for myself (own personal tool).
Well, apparently I was the only collector of FDCs when I looked back at those discussions.

Now if someone is going to say 'it was just fun' ... 'it will change again' ... then I have doubts about credibility.

This is my last FDC post on LD. I just lose a lot of time with it.
tata!
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January 28, 2023 16:26
This is my last FDC post on LD. I just lose a lot of time with it.
tata!

It is a pity that you choose this solution instead of contributing to this discussion, so that it finally comes to an internationally recognized definition of an FDC.
Hopefully there are others who can meet the call for this internationally recognized definition.
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  • January 28, 2023 18:13
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January 28, 2023 18:13
What means international ?
The logical definition of a FDC is: a cover with at least one stamp on it,
what was issued on the day of it´s cancellation.
Wether it is a blank or an illustrated cover is irrelevant and just a question
of taste of collectors,what kind they prefer to collect.
That is more or less precise as Michel defines FDC´s as well.

However if L.D. wants to make a distinction between illustrated and
blank covers,they can do what they want.Why should they follow
logic ?  Just another arbitrary rule in the manual.

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January 28, 2023 18:29
If there is an internationally recognized definition Collectioneur , will it be included in the handbook?.
This definition does not have to be long. For example, an FDC is a piece of paper, with stamp(s) or a block, with a postmark showing the date on which these stamp(s) were issued.
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January 28, 2023 18:45
If there is an internationally recognized definition , will it be included in the handbook ?.

Apparently somewhere there is a definition of an FDC that is recognized worldwide, with attribution, that's what we're looking for.
In the English language I soon came across 2 different definitions. But hopefully an unequivocal description of the philatelic concept of FDC has been established, which the stamp experts have rallied behind.
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January 28, 2023 19:02
Michel for example Collectioneur ?


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January 28, 2023 19:03
Actually, this says it all


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az60
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January 28, 2023 19:47
Collectioneur
Although I am not an FDC collector, I still want to try to answer your sincere and valid question. In my view, as stated above, an FDC is nothing more than a cover (= envelope or covering something else) with stamps on it that have a cancellation date of the first day of issue of those stamps or/and the mention of first day of issue (of course in the language of the stamp country). The stamping is the essence.
The oldest FDCs are nothing more than a regular postmark on a regular envelope. The only difference with a normal cancellation is the date stated on the stamp: A date that corresponds to the date of issue of the stamps used. The relationship with the Other: cancellations section is enormous and, in my opinion, FDCs also belong there.
A second step in the development of the FDC is the use of a different postmark, which made it clearer that it was the first day of cancellation. After that the envelopes became more and more beautiful and often had an image related to the theme of the stamps used.
Additional rules:
1. Different colors of stamps do lead to separate items.
2. A different order or location of the stamps will not result in separate items. The number of stamps or the location of the stamp is also not a separate item. The number of identical stamps affixed to the envelope is not a separate item (eg issue in blocks of four). Adding other stamps is not a separate item.
3. Envelopes with / without addressing or different addresses or attached postal labels do not lead to separate items.
4. Special FDC stamps that are different lead to separate items. Exceptions are postmarks with other place names, etc., which are not included separately.
5. A stamp other than the special FDC stamp, but with the relevant date of cancellation, will be included once. This point is very unclear and needs to be rewritten.
6. The FDC with the complete series on 1 envelope and the FDC's with only a single stamp of that series on the envelope are all separate items.
7. If a series is stuck on 2 (or more) envelopes (because of too many stamps, it won't fit) and those envelopes and cancellation are otherwise identical, we will include them as separate items.
8. Envelopes with different 'printed' illustrations lead to separate items
Hopefully FDC collectors will be able to sell their collection better this way. But again, I'm not an FDC collector, so shoot your way.
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January 28, 2023 20:11
My second rule under FDC definition would be, the new item to be entered must not be identical to an item that is already included. Different addresses are not included of course.

Too much text gives too many questions, keep it simple.
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