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September 08, 2021 16:20
postmaster
PHoving
fpvanhoutte
Loriot and I are working on the 1922 Postage Stamps from the USA.
Now I noticed something with different stamps at the perforation.
Take this stamp, for example #1115985 there the perforation has changed from L11 to Various Perforations.
I don't think this can be good, there are 197 collectors behind this stamp, of which I think a lot collect on perforation, this is no longer true, there are also a lot of sellers behind this stamp, who think an L11 perforation offer is therefore no longer valid.
And what is no longer correct is the Date of issue, and the number of stamps issued, because this number is for the L11 stamp.
Let me know how to proceed and what can be done about it.
Regards John.
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September 08, 2021 16:39
Dear John,
It has already been rectified, there was someone in the past who came up with Variants everywhere and changed perforations from L11 to various.
It will be some time before all these errors are rectified, alas.
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September 08, 2021 17:59
PHoving
If Loriot and I discover such irregularities, can Loriot and I change them back to the old position ourselves, I think they will soon get a lot further, there are still quite a few that need to be changed again.
I know a Side where one can find the whole Series, date of issue, number of stamps issued, designers, engravers etc. so those changes will be fine.
1922 Indentifier - Stamp Smarter
By the way, Loriot is working on some Background Pages for this Series.
Greetings John.


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September 08, 2021 18:37
Lyonesse PHoving there is a seal #1115985 indeed 2 different perforation, the L11 and the
L 11:10½
that occurs with more stamps of the presidents from 1922
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September 08, 2021 18:38
#1115985 is indeed serrated at 11. The stamp has 10 teeth between the fangs -> perfotronic (digital perforation meter) says '11'. In both directions. PHoving rightfully set that right.
According to Michel it is indeed 277A of 11/11/1922, perforation L11 .

Even with a simple Paint program you can check with the image of the item that this is indeed and specifically the issue of 11/11/1922 with perforation L11:


The tilted perforation vertically does not run in relation to the horizontal perforation. Anyone can check this, without a paper catalogue.

However, in the meantime this item is back on 'Various perforations'? Now I hope that doesn't lead to a war. Other opinions may be expressed on the forum, but a yes-no game in the catalog itself is not what collectors (like me) want . I can put a word on it if need be, but I'm not going to do that right now.

There is still one issue of this stamp with a different perforation: issued on 27/08/1931 with perforation L11:10 1/2. That's 277F. It is also present on LD: #1305783 .
briefmarke there you changed Michel's catalog code on 15/12/2020 from '277F' to '277 W2 F'. I'm not too old to learn: I would like to know in which edition of Michel that 'W2' can be found? My Michel is already a few years old, maybe in a newer version?

In my Michel catalog it says 'fx', but that refers to the image of the stamp , not the catalog number.

So the Michel catalog numbers for both items, incorrectly changed on 15/12/2020, must also be restored. These items are not generic, but specific.

An edition with only number 277 is not included in Michel (in other words, it does not exist today). There is only a 277A and a 277F.

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September 08, 2021 18:42
since the change only took place on 8-9-2021 it would be better that #1115985 L11 remains and a new stamp is entered with perforation  L 11:10½
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September 08, 2021 18:48
The Scott catalog numbers appear to be (still) correct:
Scott 566 (1922 - perf. 11) and  696 (1931 - perf. 11x10 1/2).

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September 08, 2021 18:54
new stamp is entered with perforation  L 11:10½
Aart, that seal is already on it (I mentioned in my response: #1305783 .)
That's why I always find it absurd to change to 'Various perforations'. The first stamp (277A) is specific L11, the second (277F) is specific L11x10 1/2. And I think that's where it ends.
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September 08, 2021 18:58
And with the 2nd you can clearly see the progression if you compare the vertical perforation to the horizontal:

The images on LD are therefore perfectly fine for both items on LD.
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September 08, 2021 19:02
aartinge
Raoul62
I know there are also perforations of L11:10½ in this Series
But this one is an L11 perforation.
And now Briefmarke has put it back on Diverse Tandingen, I don't understand why, I started this Topic, why this is not possible.
So if we turn the other stamps back to the old position, he will put them all back on Various Perforations, hope not.
I know LastDodo is a Wiki, but let's stick to the rules.
Regards John.
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September 08, 2021 19:22
Lyonesse , it is also true that there are different perforations with this item, so various perforations could be possible, but to change this now in div perforations is simply too late.
otherwise place a new item with div perching, then Briefmarke of #1115985 off, and for this item refer to 
#1305783 for perforation L11:10½
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September 08, 2021 19:23
I mentioned his alias in one of my previous posts here. Chances are he wasn't aware of it. Coincidence? The benefit of the doubt.
With the mention @ + alias, this collector gets a message with a link to this topic. In other words, from now on there is no excuse anymore (previously yes, we are not only collectors, but also people).
Yet as a collector, on a wiki and if you feel the urge to change something, and you see in the history that it has been changed back and forth a number of times, should be a little more careful.
The truth is always a lot emotionally infected. There are enough signs here to be aware of. But you have to want to see those signals.
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September 08, 2021 19:26
More generally, this is one of the great advantages of the forum. You can play open cards and everyone (who wants to) can learn a lot from it. Through PM there are always a number of good souls out there in the cold.
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September 08, 2021 20:01
Raoul62
While we're at it.
Whether that's all a coincidence I'm not sure, have you looked through this Series how many stamps he has changed in Diverse Perforations, not understandable to me, with some stamps from this series are behind hundreds of collectors whose information is no longer correct, such a person should be able to stop, and this is not the only thing that went wrong with him, e.g. the 1938 Presidents Series, which everything has been reversed there, mainly at the hands of Loriot. (Well done Loriot, that's hours of work)
Greetings John.
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September 08, 2021 20:34
Yes John, that's a pity. It often happens that good changes are rolled back by someone else. In this case it is apparently structural, so there must be an explanation for it.
It is best, as we are doing now, to have the discussion openly. But with everyone involved. Perhaps A does not know about the vision (and efforts) of B, and B then again does not know about the vision (and efforts) of A. Because then both efforts together = loss of time.
That's a shame, because if the efforts are pooled ... after all, your LD is the same as my LD.

Perhaps wait until the other party has fully read through the messages in this thread and attunes them to his ideas.


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September 08, 2021 20:45
And possibly clarify a number of game rules, which are then included in the LD Stamps handbook.
eg:
An item, with image and concrete information (such as perforation and catalog number) remains during its life those specifications, except in case of typing errors.
eg: If a stamp is added to the catalog with perforation L11 (correct perforation of the stamp of the image of the stamp that the adder has in his possession), then that characteristic may not be be changed more. A stamp with a different perforation is another item, to be added if necessary if it is not already present on LD.

Actually, I think, 'Various perforations' should be banned. An item is serrated, or not serrated. And in the latter case, a collector can indicate which perforation. If he has sufficient skills, and material, to determine these properly. If you don't have one, you shouldn't improvise.
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Morits
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September 08, 2021 20:50
It's amazing to me, you guys keep circling the hot mess, why not address Briefmarke directly, I really don't get you. This keeps you busy for an eternity.
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September 08, 2021 21:07
Working on putting in order the series “1922 Postage Stamps”, I made some changes the day before yesterday at 19:55:25 of the item nr. 1115951:
1) “various perforation” was corrected into Line perforation 11;
2) the catalog number Michel 260 was corrected into 260 A.
3) the catalog number Yvert & Tellier 228 was corrected into 228(A);
4) the catalog numbers Scott 552 and Stanley Gibbons 560 were added.

At 19:59:08 (less than 4 minutes later) the item wals already reviewed by postmaster:
Changes 1), 2) and 3) were not accepted and 4) was accepted.
I didn't understand those decisions at all and I asked postmaster why.
His answer was:
[moderator: posting pm's on the forum is not allowed]

Postmaster's review is just contradictory: on the one hand he refuses the Michel and Yvert&Tellier numbers and on the other hand he accepts the Scott and Stanley Gibbons numbers, although they all point at the same stamp with perforation 11. The image as well has undeniablely perforation 11 (10 teeth horizontally and 14 teeth vertically).



I'm beginning to believe that some people are deyning useful information and think that the stamp catalog is a picture book for children instead of a catalog for philatelists.





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September 08, 2021 21:14
[Moderator: svp niet dubbel posten]


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September 08, 2021 22:19
I think there is a different view of things by different users of LD, and you can't solve that by constantly changing each other's changes.
Because it's a different view of Concerning the items, I would also not speak of malicious intent. Only the way it has gone so far is open to criticism. But we all remain human beings, with our own idiosyncrasies.

It should be made clear to everyone (here on the forum and then perhaps also in the manual) what it should be, and then extend that to all other similar situations.
The 34 sellers of this item will not deliver a package of 'various perforations' if you put the item in your shopping cart.  And how many different perforations do I actually need to have before I buy it? item in my collection? All right? Can a clever person in the specifics list all of those? That is why I think 'Various perforations' is pure nonsense. I had already written a few months ago ...
As a collector, user of LD, that is my point of view: an item is something specific. An item is not something generic (general) to which you can attach anything. But I do think that the origin (C-A-R) may still lie at the origin. Here too I think (so again: what I think about it, as a collector and user) that we have to put an end to that past.
For this specific item it seems clear to me: in 1922 no other stamp was issued like this with perforation L11. For this item, CAR's incriminating legacy has been resolved. Other items will be more difficult to solve.

Again, my idea: stop with 'Various perforations', that makes no sense and is even contrary to the general handbook of LD. The item must actually exist. Now, the item with 'several perforations' does not exist. It's just as absurd as limiting the stamp catalog on LD to one item, with the 'stamp' property. Then you can indicate that you have a stamp ...

You can choose:
1. Leave Various Perforations where they are now, and they can be tackled (reshaped) systematically. A long process. But prevent that new items are added or existing items are changed with the property 'Various perforations'.
2. Change the existing cases 'Various perforations' to 'Toothed'. You can see that with the naked eye (without having to be highly educated). And remove the option 'Various perforations' from the list. This prevents additional discussions in the future. And it makes the description of the item itself more correct.

One decision and the problem doesn't get any bigger than it already is.

Note: if the catalog codes of an item for the major catalogs are filled in with existing codes, then it seems obvious to me that the perforation is filled in concretely. Then you really can't go wrong.
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September 08, 2021 22:34
Raoul62
I totally agree with you. Compare comics: there is also no such thing as various publishers or various printings. So why with stamps, in the past several smarties have wanted to put their stamp (:-)) on the catalog without thinking twice.
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September 08, 2021 22:39
What's even worse is that Briefmarke makes these changes every time without interfering with the discussion. He apparently has sch&%^$# to it... If he just indicates why he does something, then you might still understand it, but no, just doing his thing in the background... not fun
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September 08, 2021 22:58
Morits
Every bird sings as it is called. But if it gets too cacophonous… then action needs to be taken. There is nothing more.

VAT: I have indeed also applied the track of personal questions. Received a very nice and polite response. And I have listened, but not converted.
It is a pity that the other point of view, which has also been considered, has not enriched this thread, but that is the choice someone makes. And I respect that.

It's not about who is right or wrong.  We have to steer now. So that efforts towards data quality in the stamp section yield results.

postmaster 
Is one of the 2 proposals (message of 22h19) plausible or do you (or someone else) have something else in mind?
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September 08, 2021 23:02
Remove Various perforations from the list.
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September 08, 2021 23:16
@Catalog administrators Morits and Raoul62 (although you are both still moderators according to your unchanged profile on the French and English sites! and Raoul62: don't curse me as you did in an unfair manner the last time) 

Various perforations can still be used in series items with different perforations, but of course nowhere else.
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